[Imc-jakarta] Fwd: Jakarta IndyMedia - Seeking Clarification and Advice

[adam ceremuga optus]

Hello everyone.

i'm confused..   everyone is right and has raised valid points.
* one of the issues has been an open transparent jakarta list but aparently
there is one..
* what is recquired for an indymedia site to be put on the side  bar ?
n> apart from  a bureaucratic fixation with protocol   :
imho i was under the impresion that  contact email, mission
statement and ed policy is all that's needed.
we don't see any of the other forms on newimc as
mandatory, feel free to correct me anyone. i don't see why an imc has
to explain everything to global indymedia, just ed policy and mission
statement and contact. i mean this outreach activities question sounds
like something of a corporate job interview ;)

n> that everyone should go through the same process, but i think that
n> this ignores the very different situations that many imc's are 
n> operating under (the same goes of the email list etc issues - 
n> security issues,
agreed, tho the imc has a responsibility to it's local community to *
operate in a non heriachal and transparent manner.
The only issue i have is that jakarta.indymedia needs a
contact address/no/email/whatever on the site. the imc collective has
some sort of responsibility to be able to be reached by other
indonesians outside of their 'crew'. this means that indonesians
should be able to 'join' the decition making process in some fashion.

 however if the indykids living in indonesia fear that this
 is exposing them to goverment hostility thru an official contact
 and want to run it underground then fair enough but this needs to be
 elaborated more from ppple on the ground
 
while yes nick many sites did not go thru new imc it was decided by
global indymedia for valid reasons. while the page needs work a global
initial networking, be through oceania in the future, is needed and beneficial.

indymedia brisbane policy has been wait until structure, ed policy et all and
some semblance of html editing localism is done b4
attempting to get listed in the sidebar and that's fine. that is of
course nothing agaist regionalizing new imc process or jakarata imc
inclusion.
n> (and this isnt some anti-anyone rant, just a comment based on the 
n> idea that participatory structures have *size* limits,
size is not the problem it's the lack of integration for instance
mailing lists from indymedia.org should show all indy lists from cat,
octapod etc not just the US server..

n> as well as 
n> access & *speed* limits). imc-melb (as well as both me personally,
n> and quite a few of the oceania kids AFAIK) feels that 'global' 
n> indymedia should be little more than a chorus of voices of local 
n> imc's -
imho opinion United States (as well europe etc) needs to regionalize as well ;) and
then global indymedia can mean just that in terms of participatory
engagement by indykids
..
n> global groups (though not as much as perhaps they would like), but i 
n> think it would be easier, and more productive, for oceania kids to 
n> work regionally to build and maintain the indymedia network
no reason why both is not possible, or even to work with the
regionalised indymedia US in the future ;)

   hugs everyone it's all good..
-- 
Best regards,
 adam

>>==========================
brisbane.indymedia.org.au
part of the indymedia.org network
**be the media**
========>>==================
love and evolve



Monday, May 20, 2002, 2:52:39 PM, you wrote:

n> heya gang,

n> this discussion IMO is a good one to be having,
n> couple of things i'd like to discuss...

n> first is the straight out practical question of how to proceed - 
n> basically jakarta (a functioning site AFAIK) wants to be listed on 
n> the sidebar generally. Jay and Boud seem to be saying that they 
n> (new-imc?) want the forms filled out, and a few other things covered 
n> - like open email list, etc. Sam seems to be saying that the email 
n> list et al side of things is not likely (in fact, could be 
n> counter-productive), and the forms are time-consuming and not 
n> essential - in fact, he goes so far as to suggest that there be 
n> alternatives to filling out forms, like a vouching system, and 
n> regional decision making about new-imc's

n> me - i think that filling in forms in a means to an end, and should 
n> not be considered *mandatory* (esp. considering many imc's never went 
n> through this process - melb is a case in point). it was only ever 
n> (AFAIK) set up to aid the formation of new imc's and maintain some 
n> form of control over what becomes an imc. so, in the first instance, 
n> i think rules are only as good as their exceptions.

n> on this point i think (and it seems) that getting correctly and 
n> completely  filled out forms from jakarta indymedia is unlikely 
n> (sam?) b/c of tech & time issues, and suggest that a vouching system 
n> be used - if they have been hanging with sam (who is there to see how 
n> they work / help if he can), and have been dealing with praccus - and 
n> both of them are satisfied, i fail to see what the problem could be 
n> apart from  a bureaucratic fixation with protocol   :-)   and i dont 
n> think indymedia in general has a bureaucratic fixation with protocol. 
n> I understand that people want to have a fair system, and the feeling 
n> that everyone should go through the same process, but i think that 
n> this ignores the very different situations that many imc's are 
n> operating under (the same goes of the email list etc issues - 
n> security issues, and methods of organising collectively differ from 
n> region to region,and need to be taken into account, with the 
n> understanding that it is people in that locality or region that 
n> probably understand the situation and how to respond to it best).

n> secondly, as this comes back to the regional network in operation in 
n> oceania, many of us down here think of the current system of 'global' 
n> collectives / decision making bodies as counter-democratic in some 
n> sense. the reasons for this have been listed again and again on the 
n> global lists, and so i dont see any reason for going into them again 
n> (and this isnt some anti-anyone rant, just a comment based on the 
n> idea that participatory structures have *size* limits, as well as 
n> access & *speed* limits). imc-melb (as well as both me personally, 
n> and quite a few of the oceania kids AFAIK) feels that 'global' 
n> indymedia should be little more than a chorus of voices of local 
n> imc's - some of us like the direction the global page is heading in 
n> (ie, the 'newswire' of features, etc), and think that indymedia 
n> should continue in this direction. one step would be to move decision 
n> making on new imcs to a regional level where possible, and then make 
n> the global side bar an aggregate of all of the local / regional 
n> sidebars...

n> oceania is moving towards a situation (IMO) of regional autonomy - 
n> which is a positive step. some oceania members participate in the 
n> global groups (though not as much as perhaps they would like), but i 
n> think it would be easier, and more productive, for oceania kids to 
n> work regionally to build and maintain the indymedia network (this is 
n> happening at the moment with local crews working with jakarta with 
n> tech, org and money, and has happened with aotearoa, brisbane, and 
n> adelaide)...

n> nik


>>Sam, Boud, all,
>>
>>It's great, Sam, that you have been so helpful to the Jakarta IMC.  Bravo! 
>>
>>I think what Boud is saying is right.  In a place where internet 
>>access is expensive and difficult, an IMC can/must do work primarily 
>>off-line to have it be effective.  Whether or not an IMC makes media 
>>on or off the internet, the general organizing principles are the 
>>same -- have meetings, have enough people to sustain a group, gather 
>>a mission statement and editorial policy, not be dominated by one 
>>organization.  Once a group is well-organized, getting linked on the 
>>left column of the indymedia sites could very well be as easy as 
>>sending in responses to the membership criteria. 
>>
>>I'm pretty sure Boud has translated much of the new-imc documents 
>>into Indonesian, which should give the Jakarta group an extra boost. 
>>I'm sure your presence, Sam, will be quite helpful, even if it's 
>>only over the next couple days.
>>
>>As for regionalization, yes yes yes!  Asia-Pacific has gone further 
>>than most other regions in "approving" their own IMCs, which is why 
>>the Jakarta site is able to be up in general.  I really think that's 
>>a good thing, as long as we're using the same or very similar 
>>principles and criteria -- if not, I imagine there would be some 
>>confusion.  I still think every new imc would have to clear through 
>>imc-process though before they're linked through the 
>>www.indymedia.org site, so everyone can get a chance to get to know 
>>them before we all invite them into the network.  I see no reason 
>>why Asia-Pacific can't "approve" local IMCs, sort of like the 
>>new-imc working group does, sending along their membership criteria 
>>and other stuff to imc-process when the imcs are ready.  I'd like to 
>>see that kind of thing work in conjunction with the new-imc group, 
>>rather than separate from it, but I see no reason why Asia-Pacific 
>>couldn't take more of an active role.
>>
>>At one point Praccus was working pretty closely with the new-imc 
>>group to make something like this possible but communication has 
>>fallen off as of late.  If anyone else is willing to fulfill that 
>>role, or if Praccus would like to revive it, there'd be nothing but 
>>enthusiasm from my direction.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Jay



>>The main thing this regional group would need to do is update the sidebar and
>>also create subdomains off the main domain. I have CC'd this to Nik
>>(fragments@va.com.au) who is involved in this regional group - which I
>>understand already has a list operating - imc-australasia@lists
>>
>>My suggestion is that there is a process for regional decision-making and
>>acceptance of new regionally located Indy sites - based on regional needs.
>>These can be set up locally - ie. on one of the servers in the region (cat,
>>octapod...) or maybe a request can be made to the US. But the decision-making
>>should be done regionally.
>>
>>Also, I would suggest that 'vouching' be used. Rather than getting a group to
>>make a proposal and do a lot of paper pushing, if someone from an 
>>existing Indy
>>collective goes to that group and can see that there is a real 
>>desire to have a
>>Indy site - that should be adequate.
>>
>>I am not too sure where to go with this - except to say that it 
>>would be really
>>fantastic to accept jakarta.indy in to the indy network. At the moment,
>>independent media makers are fairly restricted. There are many community radio
>>stations that operates illegally, and the government has 30 year 
>>jail sentences
>>for these operators. Currently, there is debate in parliament whether licences
>>should be allocated to community radio - but there is resistance from the
>>government who fear further 'disintegration' of indonesia.
>>
>>Meggy and the others around are really trying to foster the idea of 
>>free media -
>>  and they see jakarta.indymedia as playing an important role... But with it
>>having a .au suffix and not being on the sidebar makes things a bit difficult.
>>And it was their idea - they made the initial proposal many months ago. It
>>wasn't like someone from Melbourne is encouraging them to set up an Indy site!
>>I think their initiative should be supported!!!
>>
>>Hokay - leave it at that for now. I am hoping that others at imc-australasia
>>takes up this discussion especially about regional decision-making in terms of
>>new-indy websites.
>>
n> See ya, Sam :)