[ahimsa-tech] TINA or TIAA, that is the question: was: Re: ahimsa-tech Digest, Vol 41, Issue 1

[dan blah]

On 12/7/06, boud <boud at riseup.net> wrote:
> hi dan,
>
> On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, dan blah wrote:
>
> > On 12/6/06, boud <boud at riseup.net> wrote:
> >> hi libertinus,
> >>
> >> On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Libertinus wrote:
> >>
> >>> what?
> >>>
> >>> why this? indymedia urbana what's doing? selling web service?
> >>
> >> Ummmm.... dan says he's paying for the dedicated servers himself.
> >> i'm not sure that giving him some "refund" is necessarily "buying".
> >>
> > right, these servers are funded for my own tinkering.  as long as i
> > don't significantly go over my allowed monthly bandwidth no one is
> > obligated to pay anything.  if i do go over i will only hold the
> > responsible user accountable not all users.  i also wanted to specify
> > that they are not owned by uc-imc (think benevolent dictator) but are
> > in many cases manged by the uc-imc tech group.
>
> Thanks for the clarification, though i don't quite understand "as long
> as ... obligated to pay anything" and "hold the user accountable".
>
> In indymedia we use formal-consensus or "rough consensus and running
> code" type decision making along with people getting to know each
> other, so it's a different notion of responsibility than
> "accountability".
>
> "accountability" is about punishing someone *after* a bad decision is
> taken or an error happens - e.g. implying in this case that someone
> used too much bandwidth, and so has a moral obligation to pay for that.
>
> Consenus decision-making is about making better decisions beforehand
> rather than trying to blame individuals afterward.
>
> We don't accept the idea of people being obligated to pay money to
> each other.
>
> We try to do things together voluntarily in cooperation with one another.
>
> (At least, these are the ways i understand indymedia.)
>
> It's true that we have to interface with the monetary system to a certain
> extent, but i think the idea is to have something like a firewall between
> that commercial system and indymedia.
>
yeah that would be all the other "donated" servers out there where the
bill goes to one person.

> More concretely, rather than saying that you might hold an individual
> user accountable, i think it would be more reasonable that you ask
> people for help in learning various bandwidth management techniques in
> order to be sure that you don't go over bandwidth - that way an
> "economical system firewall" between the commercial system and
> indymedia will (more or less) remain in place.
>
well sure that all sounds good but the hosting company is still
holding me accountable each month to pay the bill.  the bill is
absolutely no problem to me as long as it stays the same every month.
i am not talking about lacking enough bandwidth to handle a very
popular site (do any of the sites looking for hosting use more than
2000GB a mo?) but am referring to abuse whose cause is the result of a
non-diligent user and not mine.

historically, i have yet to charge anyone and have yet to have a
bandwidth issue but it is understood that if an event occurs that
exceeds both my means and the responsible site/service/whatever means
then most likely that server will go away.  this is no different than
letting someone borrow your car/bike/<insert anything here> and asking
them to pay for damages where no one is to blame but them.

if this is an issue then just don't host anything on the dedicated servers.

> For using iptables and tc qdisc for bandwidth control, see e.g.
> http://szabilinux.hu/bandwidth/
>
> You might need to recompile your kernel.
>
> i think there's also apache bandwidth control possible, though i've
> never used it.
>
heh... i guess i have some things to google :)

>
> >>> Im lost
> >>
> >>>> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:32:28 -0600
> >>>> From: "dan blah" <dan.blah at gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: [ahimsa-tech] who am i and overview of U-C IMC tech
> >>>>      resources/facilities...
> >>
> >>>> Existing server resources and space at the U-C IMC are available.  As
> >>>> it is now, the U-C IMC pays for both power and bandwidth at the Urbana
> >>>> facility.  We have older 20U+ racks laying around that could be used
> >>>> as a dedicated racks as well as shelving for non rack mounted
> >>>> equipment available.  The servers located within the U-C IMC are
> >>>> administered by 4 U-C IMC tech group members who have 24/7 access to
> >>>> the space.  The dedicated servers are available for use but funded out
> >>>> of my own pocket and are thus not directly managed by the U-C IMC Tech
> >>>> Group.
> >>>>
> >>>> As for the cost of bandwidth, power, space, and other services that
> >>>> may be needed would have to be negotiated on a per proposal.  Be
> >>>> assured that costs, if any, will be substantially lower than most
> >>>> anything else out there.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, this paragraph does sound a bit strange. Asking for
> >> a refund for what he has spent from his own money is one thing, but here
> >> it sounds like bargaining positions and power relations based on money
> >> are creeping in, under the idea "it's necessary (TINA)".
> >>
> > this was said with the idea that in the event services the uc-imc
> > provides the global indymedia network (or anyone for that matter)
> > exceed our capacity it could result in an attempt to raise money to
> > raise our capacity.
>
> Well, this seems to me more or less reasonable, though of course, i'm
> only speaking for myself.
> >
> > see:
> > http://chambana.net/
> >
> > example:
> >> dan - it would be great if you could help UC IMC "non-techies" switch
> >> to gnucash and/or sql-ledger (or some other free software money
> >> management package).  We have the rather embarrassing situation that
> >> they (you) have advertised for two Giga-$-corporations:
> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-communication/2006-September/0908-j2.html
> >>
> >> There were two replies from UCIMC that i noticed:
> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-communication/2006-September/0919-xl.html
> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-communication/2006-September/0919-jm.html
> >>
> >> but they essentially said (as far as i understand them) "we were
> >> forced to advertise for Giga-$-corporations because we couldn't find
> >> any pratical alternative; therefore (implicitly) it's not advertising
> >> because it was obligatory advertising: TINA".
> >>
> > heh... ya this was addressed by the finance group who conferred with
> > the ucimc tech group around that time.  it's not feasible for for
> > uc-imc to move to gnucash (which imo is the best osfs out there... i
> > know i use it for my personal expenses).  it's something that has been
> > tried out and argued over internally several times and has been
> > collectively decided by both the uc-imc tech and finance groups that
> > the current osfs out there is lacking.  no doubt we could utilize
> > several applications and probably write a few scripts to make osfs
> > work (if the tech group were able and had the time) at the cost of
> > more time spent managing our finances.
>
> Have you tried sql-ledger? From what i understand, gnucash is more
> for personal finances and sql-ledger is more for organisations, so it
> does sound like sql-ledger might be better.
>
sure, it has more features but it is not easier to use.
>
>
> > do know that when moving to an osfs will not require our finance group
> > to loose data or spend unavailable time migrating data, the uc-imc
> > finances will be managed by osfs.
>
> This is the question of when it is acceptable to compromise and do TINA instead
> of TIAA:
> * Maggie Thatcher: There Is No Alternative
> * Gandhi, Medha Patkar, Zapatistas, GNU, indymedia, ...: There Is An Alternative
>
nice, i was wondering what that ment.

> UC-IMC has become so dependent on its non-free software that it has
> made advertisements for two Giga-$ corporations. The advertisement consists
> of the implicit message:
>
>    "TINA: you need Giga-$ corporation software to manage money even if
>    you are a radical, anti-authoritarian, anti-hierarchical group. We
>    even insist that you use these Giga-$ corporations' software as a
>    requirement to become our 'employee'. There Is NO Alternative!"
>
> Being forced into this sort of advertising is, IMHO, a very high
> political cost to pay. Doesn't it weaken our whole message of TIAA?
>
> It would make sense for you to cooperate with your geographical region,
> especially since financial software is probably quite dependent on
> specific USA federal and state legislation etc.
>
> If you ask for help on imc-tech and especially from imc portland techies,
> then i'm sure they should be able to help you with this.
>
> > *begin flames/trolling/general (deserved?) bashing*
>
> i think the Giga-$-corporation advertisements/quickbook/sql-ledger
> thread should probably go to imc-tech or maybe a usa based tech mailing
> list (if there is one?).
>
thats all good but honestly... i don't really care.  if the uc-imc
finance group implores the uc-imc tech group to provide them with an
osfs solution, i am on it.  as it is right now (they haven't implored
us) i am personally more interested in setting up public access
machines for lower income community members, getting internet to lower
income houses (CUWiN), keeping our no (low) cost hosting servers up,
and playing with new and better broadcasting software for our
community radio station.  isn't that the joy of volunteering... you
get to pick what you do :)

i put faith in the uc-imc finance group (with several of them being
quite tech savvy) that the decision to use quickbooks allows members
to do other things rather than spend (speculation) twice as much time
handling finances using sql-ledger.  this would only result in still
having to hire someone but for more time (more personal speculation).
> IMHO the servers-available thread can probably stay on ahimsa-tech.
>
> solidarity
> boud
>


-- 
Daniel