[axxs-sysadmin] [devActive] Re: Decision Making
Dave Fregon
dave at netaxxs.com.au
Thu Nov 30 20:19:07 PST 2006
I'm not sure why this reply was sent to devactive list, but included it
here in the CC in case there was some reason I miss.
On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 13:27 +1100, hugh trevelyan wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification Dave.
>
> I had no intention of delaying a decision. I just saw an opportunity to
> clarify the general decision-making process, as a separate matter.
Yep I knew that, I was putting a lot down covering a few emails in one
due to time restraints in replying to each, and trying to get in our
position clearly for everyones benefit, as I think there was confusion
on the list, and yes, time has been an enemy with getting down docs on
this, and where we are at.
one thing we don't want to do is lose the dynamics we have by placing
some massive structure over how the sysadmin team, a small group,
operates, not yet in such an early stage where we are looking at just
getting a system up to document what we already have, and are pretty
clear on ourselves. Especially when we are doing that dynamic bit on a
public list, for transparency. Dogmatic requirements over process,
decision making and structure can have a hindering process on something
just forming, as much as it can help. it's a balance. your post I
thought was quite valid, it just led me to thinking I should put this
down.
Basically, there's a handful of techs in Australia, we all know most of
them, and half of the issues as we saw it, is those folk that are
getting tech savvy have no place to get savvier and involve themselves,
or connect, or explore getting sustainable. to network with others and
be able to jump into stuff on or off the server and get active quicker.
To set up a site to muck around, and get others on board their ideas,
there's a place they can talk to other like minded geeks for that
support in action rather than just documentation. I wish I had a clear
way of getting involved in activist-geekdom more from a community aspect
than a project one when I got on the net. I needed to be able to be
dynamic, I needed to be able to run with an idea when I had it, I needed
to be able to be quite open with my politics/views without having that
being a stopping point over the position I was taking with code etc etc
etc.
> I though Edan was being held up by a lack of response from the list. But
> maybe the discussion was elsewhere, maybe IRC.
What discussion? it wasn't needed. Edan seems to be quite 'with' what he
was on about, it was clear, just needed us to agree, and it to be set up
by the sponsor/supporter (still working on this terminology;) and he to
be emailed out the logins :) done :) Edan may get more involved, connect
with others or not, up to him :) he doesn't need to be involved in one
of our projects .. to be involved :)
BTW, I am finding I just can't keep up with emails, a thread starts
going on a tangent, and I end up leaving it by the wayside as I just
don't have time. I pretty much guess others are in the same boat.
generally I skim these types of threads when I can, but usually I take
the involvement in the thread meaning 'someone else is dealing with it',
and move on.
> I'm more than happy to leave sysadmin discussion to geeks, and was
> a bit surprised when I was asked to join the list. I thought it must be
> expected that I/we participate.
hey np, people who are in groups hosted on the box are encouraged to
join the list so they know whats going on, with issues that are occuring
like load etc etc, I thought it best tho that it be said before people
get totally the wrong impression and things started being VERY unclear
over what was what, exactly where we were at from our point of view at
netaxxs, and I presume the other techs. the list is us being transparent
as we develop these things, and feedback such as yours _is_ appreciated,
I was worried however that folk may have the wrong impression
> Just a comment on the perspective that cat got into difficulties because
> too much unpaid work was needed from geeks. That's true. Its also true
> that some geeks were unrealistically generous in setting up sites etc for
> non-geek activists, sometimes without collective agreement, and with little
> interest in the need for ongoing maintenance. Cat promised more than it
> could sustain at a volunteer level. I hope axxs can avoid that painful problem.
yes, by not having end-user support as part of our sysadmin collective
strategy in the short term at least, or end-users as part of the process
of self-determination. it's not part of the focus of the project for
bringing up self sustaining servers. it's clear hosting only. Geeks can
do what they want in their own little 'realm' on the server, if that
means doing support, good on em. I'll help if they need to get up an faq
time permitting, but I can't fill it. I have trouble getting to docs on
my primary projects let alone basically re-documenting stuff that's all
over the web anyway.
Avoiding trying to cover all bases and world issues whilst you can count
the geeks on one hand, but taking things one step at a time. rounding up
what is left of 'activist/autonom' techs in the region and out, and
trying to get that network stronger so that it can incubate projects
like catalyst, without the elements of pressure projects and support can
put on a collective.
> Thanks for the suggestion re the Plesk Client Manual. I'll have a look but
> we haven't really got that far as I still can't log in to plesk for
> lack of a password.
I'm not sure what access to what account you are referring too, there's
multiple accounts on the server, at a 'client' level and a 'domain'
level.
also there is some previous Plesk version flash video tutorials at :
http://netaxxs.com.au/pages/support/plesk-tutorials.php
and plesk.com have forums and a knowledgebase with all levels of support
from end-user to developer.
It would be a shame spending all the geek time collating and basically
saving others their time of using a search engine to find the same
material. would be a good project for a geek if they wanted to take it
on.
aketus has a wonderful aptgetanarchy.org site, I find it hard enough
getting to that to put stuff up, and I said to myself I would try and do
one a day .. hasn't happened.
don't mean to be a downer, just don't want to aim for the stars while
still evolving legs :)
Dave
>
> over and out,
> hugh
>
> On 30/11/06, dave wrote:
> > On 11/25/06, hugh trevelyan wrote:
> > > On 25/11/06, aketus wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > P.S A reminder that folk can always use the channel #axxs on Indymedia
> > > > IRC server (irc.indymedia.org) for real-time decision making for
> > > > axxs.org and also for realtime tech support. A lot of good activity has
> > > > come from some IRC discussion and also promotes quicker action, as
> > > > opposed to mailing lists in which sometimes mail can be forgotten, lost
> > > > or just grows cobwebs in the ether :)
> > >
> > > well IRC certainly has the wonderful benefit of immediacy and addresses
> > > the serious problem that decision-making without an agreed time-frame
> > > often results in no decision at all.
> > >
> > > I'm working full time now, away from my monitor. So my concern is being
> > > left out of decisions that concern me. And IRC isn't even accessible in
> > > retrospect as an archive, as listmail is.
> >
> > I'm sure if decisions concerned you Hugh, the collective would contact
> > you!! Most all of the folk in the axxs.org loose collective of geeks
> > are online most every day and most nights as well, unless travelling.
> >
> > > IRC is great for small matters that don't require consensus, and for staying
> > > in touch. Ideally, important decisions include everyone concerned in all the
> > > discussion. Even off-list discussions can undermine the process.
> >
> > IRC can be great for consensus for a small dynamic group, if all the
> > collective are there, and most every day we all are, or easily within
> > reach. decision making hasn't been a problem for us to date, and we
> > are in a process of working out our methodologies, processes and
> > platform atm via this upcoming wiki so that we can collectively agree
> > on a more formal process as we expend our small (atm;) collective.
> >
> > > I was about to write a proposal for our decision-making process, but
> > > I think I should leave it to see how seriously we want to take it.
> > > F'rinstance are we interested in consensus? It aint always easy. ;-)
> >
> > I'm a little confused here and maybe some folk on this list are too.
> >
> > here's netaxxs collectives take on things :
> >
> > axxs.org is a collective of geeks, it was agreed long ago as the
> > sudoers list at the time, for support of each other and our projects
> > we are involved with, it's not a collective of non-geeks, well that
> > was never the focus, the focus was in a different area than groups
> > such as catalyst. I respect what catalyst was attempting to do myself,
> > but it's not the area that axxs.org was setup for, or wanted to head.
> > Indeed, we were wanting to head toward a network of geeks collectives
> > on their own servers that are sustainable workspaces for those geeks,
> > and incubators for more.
> >
> > we were hoping, yes, down the track, to get some kind of system going
> > where users could partake in decisions regarding the server, but this
> > is kinda meant in regard machines financed by the groups on it, and
> > something way down the track and not at all thought out as yet about
> > how to do it without making the geeks just another unpaid exploited
> > labour, wearing out from having to tackle folk not familiar with the
> > medium they are making decisions about.
> >
> > Axxs.org was initially our collectives 'community server', and we put
> > up projects and sites for folk on it, within our means, and usually
> > always to people that were geeks themselves, or wasn't any
> > maintenance, like the IMC's (How that has changed!!!) .. NetAxxs then
> > decided that we would work at bringing other geeks on board, so that
> > we could network and start building something SUSTAINABLE, from a geek
> > perspective, not the visions of end-users projects, but to start
> > building sustainable geeks, and providing an incubator and start of a
> > network of them. Other geeks given sudo access formed the start of the
> > loose collective, with the idea that we should organise as geeks, in
> > our workplaces and skills, so that we can take that on to our
> > projects. I have talked about unionising (IWW/ASF) and bringing this
> > to other IT workers in Australia down the track, but we need to get
> > things organised first, and try and get some way of getting the loose
> > geeks around the place connected and have a support network of others
> > .. a place to meet and geek together, but also get active in both our
> > personal work lives and hopefully away from 'the boss', along with the
> > projects we work on and involve ourselves with.
> >
> > Axxs.org has never been any more than a few geeks getting together to
> > support each other, learn from that, make it work, and take what we
> > have learnt out to other geeks, so they can do the same.
> >
> > now, I can see people saying that's elitist or 'widening the digital
> > divide' or some such, but I totally disagree. (indeed, bridging the
> > digital divide would be better approached by organising phones and
> > radio communications networks for the 95% of the world that does not
> > even have that, not teaching the richest few percent how to use an FTP
> > program because they couldn't be stuffed doing it themselves.)
> >
> > Axxs.org when started by netaxxs never attempted this lofty ambition,
> > we started trying to organise our workplace is all, and organise with
> > others in the same field. Try and get ourselves self-sufficient and
> > away from the boss, and connect with others who want to do the same.
> > Our work just happens to be the internet, but it's still a work-place,
> > with real workers, doing it because they have to eat. I personally am
> > realistic, I work in this area on the net, and it's hard labour. It's
> > not easy, I do long hours and no real support network other than who I
> > happen to know, and that took YEARS to find them and get to know them,
> > and I can count them on one hand. All these folks on the internet have
> > access to learn as I did, they aren't hindered, indeed there's easier
> > docs and a huge amount of support systems out there to learn any
> > aspect of the net. I learnt this way, when there was hardly ANY docs
> > on most geeky things. I couldn't afford access and connected via a
> > friends Uni account I think unless we get and have a strong network of
> > geeks, and support mechanisms focussed at geeks, we are continually
> > going to see good people, good projects, and good ambitions fall right
> > over.
> >
> > The sudoers a while back decided that our first term aim was to get
> > ourselves organised in putting this stuff down .. not for anyone elses
> > benefit, but for ours.
> >
> > My concerns here are in protecting the geeks on the box from being
> > inundated, axxs.org becoming just an extension to their workplace
> > rather than a place they can call their own and start fortifying
> > against the corporates out there that want their soul. I don't think
> > that's bad, I think it's needed.
> >
> > For instance. the decision over this website was made, but it was
> > never set up. The decision was made according to our loose protocols
> > the existing collective made, that if someone backs the site and
> > no-other GEEK disagrees in 3 days, it can go up with the backer as
> > being the sponsor/supporter. If someone is away, fine by us, if they
> > come back and don't like the new addition, it was agreed by us that we
> > bring it back to the list for consensus amongst us.
> >
> > I'm setting up their site now, both Aketus and I said ok, I will
> > sponsor/support np, Edan was working with them, we understand that
> > it's not going to be a pain in the arse for us, and should have been
> > given out to Edan a while back not fallen into delays about process,
> > when we already have agreed on process for the moment, till the geeks
> > work out something more formal on our wiki.
> >
> > If catalyst want a wiki for teaching people the internet and about
> > websites etc, great, it's just time atm, not much of which I
> > personally have, maybe another geek does? If they want to show people
> > how to manage their site currently on axxs.org, I suggest downloading
> > the Plesk Client Manual.
> >
> > Sorry Edan for the delay, I will set it up now .. are you considering
> > managing a few sites in future? in that case I will set you up so that
> > you can.
> >
> > I will email you offlist with login details.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > hugh
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hugh trevelyan wrote:
> > > > > hi Edan (& all),
> > > > >
> > > > > On 24/11/06, Edan Baxter wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hey ppl,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> How did the request for manukoreri.net go...?
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > I see you're a list subscriber, so you've seen the positive response
> > > > > from Dave, and a coupla other friendly but non-specific replies. No one
> > > > > has said "no", but I reckon it'd be good to give you a more definite
> > > > > response. We're still in early daze as a consensus (?) decision-making
> > > > > list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Its certainly a good start that you've reposted with a specific subject
> > > > > header. [Previous discussion was in the thread: sudo for Boud.]
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm in favour of your request, but do think we need to make truly
> > > > > collective decisions about things which may affect other projects on
> > > > > the server & may require unpaid work from collective members in future.
> > > > > On the latter point my voice is weak as I'm not a geek.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll post a proposal about our decision-making process separately.
> > > > >
> > > > > cheers,
> > > > > hugh
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Like I said, I'm happy to totally setup the site.. Nick
> > > confirmed that he'd
> > > > >> be prepared to pay $10 a month should everything go to plan.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Also, if it would help, as a courtesy I'd be happy to offer
> > > some personal
> > > > >> design time over coming months for any appropriate projects that come up
> > > > >> with axxs..
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Edan
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> axxs-sysadmin mailing list
> > > > >> axxs-sysadmin at lists.indymedia.org
> > > > >> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/axxs-sysadmin
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > axxs-sysadmin mailing list
> > > > axxs-sysadmin at lists.indymedia.org
> > > > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/axxs-sysadmin
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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>
> ...the fruits of the earth belong to everyone...
> ...the earth itself belongs to no one.
> --- Jean-Jacques Rousseau
> ________________________________
>
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