[Imc-alternatives] log of design working group meeting, Sunday April 6

[Jay]

Hi alternatives,

On Sunday evening April 6 -- middle of the 
night/early morning April 7 for Dimitris -- Nick, 
Michael, Josh M., Aaron C., Dimitris and I met in 
the #alternatives chat room to form the basis of 
an imc-alternatives design team.  Below I'll 
paste a log of most of the meeting, starting with some notes by Michael.

The next meeting will be Sunday evening, April 27 
9pm eastern time (April 28 for Europe/Oceania, 
01:00 GMT).  If you're in Europe and you would 
like to come but can't because of the timing, let 
us know and maybe we can change the meeting time.

Jay

Notes from the IRC meeting. Below the notes is a 
record of the majority of the meeting:

Site’s Primary Function:

Question: What do we want people to do when they get here?

Interface:

User interface must be straight forward and apply user friendly conditions.

Distinguish between frontend interface between 
casual visitor and registered or logged in member.

User-configured homepage?

Sectional ideas: How about one for Skill Shares?
Ideas about what the site might look like:
    * FRONTPAGE
    * open newswire
    * featured articles
    * KNOWLEDGE BASE
    * CATEGORIES
    * tagged
    * featured articles
    * NETWORKING (user/group profiles)
    * mailing lists/ group lists (networking)
    * wiki pages (networking feature)
    * calendar (networking feature)
    * connections (networking? feature)
    * want lists (craigslist style)

<michaelv> ok

<michaelv> then you can vote too

<Jay> So maybe we should start outlining tasks 
that are part of getting the sitemap together.

<AC> sounds good

<nicklally> why are we voting? they kind of have to be in that order

<michaelv> we can also create a page for that sitemap up above

<nicklally> Yes, good call

<michaelv> ok, wiki?

<Jay> Sounds reasonable.

<qwerty> hello people. Sorry to jump in. Just 
noticed this discussion. I’m working on the 
migration of indy.gr to the new version of 
indycore. You can take a look at <http://dev.indy.gr>dev.indy.gr

<Jay> I’m very much a novice at site development, 
so talking through some of the steps would be a nice help.

<Jay> Hi qwerty!

<qwerty> hi Jay :)

<qwerty> no sleep tonight

<Jay> Yeah, it’s early here in the U.S.

<michaelv> hey qwerty

<Jay> We’re talking about the first steps on site 
development: putting together a sitemap.

<michaelv> voting just clarifies, it will ask 
you. not necessary, but it places them in a numbered list on the viewing end

<nicklally> Ok, I see.

<nicklally> So, when Jay and I were talking about 
the sitemap, we had “HOME” “KNOWLEDGE BASE” 
“CATEGORIES” and “NETWORKING” as the four main sections

<michaelv> ok, I started a wiki for sitemap development outlining

<michaelv> i may need to slip away for a few minutes

<nicklally> I would like to hear other people’s 
ideas about how the site could function in terms 
of organization, because it’s a hard question and 
one that will inform the design a ton.

<michaelv> i think as simple and user friendly, 
and visually appealing without overwhelming

<michaelv> off the top of my head

<AC> you want to decide what the primary function 
of the site is, what do you want people to do when they get there

<nicklally> Yeah, we tried to make it really 
simple, hence the 4 main sections. I definitely 
think whatever happens that it should be easy and clear to navigate.

<nicklally> Good question. Is the newswire still the focus in people’s minds?

<michaelv> we should definitely have that

<Jay> Ideally, different people are going to come 
to the site with different interests and needs.

<Jay> There will be the person who just comes for 
information, which is why a newswire and front page features are key.

<michaelv> would the deep rss feed aspect allow 
for each user to have different newsfeed or newswires?

<Jay> There will be an activist coming to learn 
about how to accomplish an alternatives-oriented 
task, which would make the knowledge base key.

<nicklally> Yeah, I think one of the big 
challenges of the design is showing a lot of 
possibilities on teh front page without it getting overwhelming/confusing

<michaelv> per preference lists

<Jay> And there are people, we hope, who are 
doing alternatives work who will come to network.

<Jay> Hence, social networking.

<michaelv> what about video-sharing capabilities

<michaelv> yes

<nicklally> I would think we’d also want the 
design to be flexible in terms of adding new 
features, since everything won’t be working immediately.

<Jay> I agree with this. Video-sharing is cool, 
but seems like something that could be added once 
the core of the site is working.

<michaelv> that is a good point

<michaelv> it will, however, be a great way for 
people with alternatives projects going on to 
share them in a more visual way, so down the road 
will be key to transporting that information

<michaelv> brb

<michaelv> ok, created a wiki on crabgrass 
entitled “step one: sitemap” with what we have mentioned so far

<nicklally> Certain aspects can really be 
integrated and simplified for the front page. For 
instance, there could be a newswire and those 
articles are tagged and linked to related knowledge base pages.

<nicklally> And there can be aspects of social 
networking, but you wouldn’t see calendars and 
connections and such until you actually follow 
the link to netwroking stuff or click on someone’s profile

<michaelv> I think there would be obvious 
differences with whether users are logged in or 
not, and logged in users could personalize the 
frontend, does that sound like what we are aiming for, in terms of versatility?

<Jay> I like that. I think the front page should 
be straightforward and simple but we shouldn’t 
throw every social networking tool at the person 
who is just coming to check out information about alternatives.

<nicklally> Yeah, that would be great.

<Jay> Michael, I agree­people who are logged in 
should have a lot more access and be able to do more to maniuplate the site.

<nicklally> I think it would be good to get an 
idea about what the programmers are working on 
and what’s possible in the short and long term.

<nicklally> because that sounds great, but i have 
no idea what that takes and if people are working on something like that

<Jay> Well, Aaron has built the PhillyIMC based 
on Drupal and Qwerty is building indycore sites. 
How do logins, for example, work in Philly/Greece?

<michaelv> it would be like igoogle or my yahoo

<michaelv> my alternatives

<qwerty> the default policy for indycore is that 
you need a login in order to post comments and 
create projects, but not for publishing articles, 
more info, photos, videos, audio etc

<qwerty> you register by providing an email address that is verified

<qwerty> it could be configured differently if needed

<qwerty> but it’s good to know that email 
addresses provided are real so that the server 
won’t have to deal with lots of bounced messages, 
when users join projects, subscribe mailing lists and ask for notifications

<Jay> That sounds good for Alternatives. People 
can post to the newswire anonymously (and maybe 
comment anonymously, which would be different, 
but maybe that’s not a priority), but to be 
involved in the interactive features of the site they would have to login.

<nicklally> so is a user-configured homepage a possibility?

<nicklally> Or maybe we’re getting away from 
what’s going to help us get going with designing this thing

<nicklally> One thing that Jay and I talked about 
is making concept designs to get people excited 
and start to see the site in a new way

<michaelv> well, as far as design, we should 
think first about what non-signed in visitors will see

<nicklally> Yeah, I agree

<nicklally> maybe we can talk about our process 
for design, which could start with people’s interests/skills

<nicklally> i can help with all aspects of the 
design process, from conceptualization, layout, design and coding
<nicklally> what about everyone else?
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<michaelv> visual elements being the key

<michaelv> hay josh

<Jay> This doesn’t happen to be Josh Marcus
?

<josh050> it does!

<Jay> Hurrah!

<michaelv> i live in Amish country

<michaelv> Hannah’s man?
<josh050> hello folks 
 I am a programmer from Philly
    * qwerty gives channel operator status to Jay 
michaelv AC josh050 nicklally

<josh050> also yes, I am Hannah Sassaman’s husband

<michaelv> hey, she told me you would be here the other day in an email

<Jay> (I’ll update josh on what we’ve talked about)

<michaelv> i was in DC for the LPFM Lobby Day

<michaelv> ok

<michaelv> josh, we are also logged into 
crabgrass and updating the group with what we talk about here

<Jay> (Okay, Josh has been more or less updated.)
<nicklally> Anyone else want to share their 
interest/skills in regard to the design of the new site?
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<Jay> I have very little graphic design ability 
and little experience building sites. I have been 
working on the concept of the alternatives site 
for a while though and could interact with the 
development process by trying to translate that 
vision into elements of the site to be developed.

<Jay> I can also offer great enthusiasm.

<josh050> Hey folks. I am a programmer that also 
has experience thinking about gathering 
requirements and pasting technologies together. I 
have the info design & visual design skills of a 
programmer, who is to say not much. But I also have enthuasism!

<josh050> err, which not who

<michaelv> i am rusty on my css, but plan on 
reading up again and refreshing my capabilities 
now that I passed my COTA certification exam

<nicklally> Are there other people who are 
interested in designing things and making graphics and such?

<michaelv> hey, looking at the list that nick 
posted up before Josh got here (which is on the 
crabgrass top wiki page), and looking specifically at “mailing lists”
<michaelv> I can make graphics and such
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<nicklally> ok, cool

<michaelv> crabgrass will generally eliminate the 
need for mailing lists,so to speak

<nicklally> good point

<michaelv> so perhaps instead of lists it could 
be more within the language of social networking, 
which most people these days are more accustomed to

<qwerty> I’m a freelance programmer. I’ve been 
developing web applications professionally since 
2000 and indymedia tools voluntarily since 2002. 
I’m currently working for the European Social 
forum in Malmo (esf2008.org). I like a lot the 
imc alternatives project but have very little 
time to devote. However I’m commited to 
developing indycore and if you decide to use it I’ll be supporting it

<michaelv> some of the visions for crabgrass a 
great list of local groups, and allow for many 
different ways for these groups to connect or search the database

<michaelv> this would include being able to have 
a list of other crabgrass installs around the 
world­sort of a new way to look at decentralized 
netoworks, but this would be a way for 
alternatives to interconnect the different 
alternatives projects going on around the world, from this perspective

<michaelv> dang, my beer is warm

<nicklally> once we start refining this sitemap, 
there are some different ways to go ahead with 
the initial wireframes and designs. i could see a 
process in which several people come up with 
unique wireframes, then we integrate them based on the feedback from the groupd

<michaelv> can you expand a little on wireframes 
for me­I think I know what you mean, but I want to be sure

<nicklally> the design process could be the same, 
then once we have a good working design we can 
start splitting up taks (icons, headers, different pages, etc)

<nicklally> a layout, without any design stuff

<michaelv> got ya, that was what I thought

<nicklally> so you could say a menu goes here, 
content goes here, it’s this big, etc, etc

<michaelv> storyboarding, basically

<nicklally> yeah

<nicklally> do others have ideas about the design process?
<josh050> i i would nudsifouoiasf]]]
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<michaelv> nick, did you update the ranked list?
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<nicklally> yeah

<michaelv> good

<michaelv> ok, so, we need to start splitting up tasks?

<michaelv> I can start a page for that, if no one else has yet?

<nicklally> maybe, or maybe not.

<nicklally> maybe several people want to work on 
their own wireframes and we can see everyone’s 
visions and pick and choose elements we like/dislike

<nicklally> or maybe there’s another way

<nicklally> are there other people interested in working on wireframes?

<michaelv> we could use the crabgrass ranking 
feature, with each person submitting a wireframe layout design.

<nicklally> yeah, definitely

<michaelv> actually, you can create polls too I think

<nicklally> although, i think it will be 
important for all these steps to choose elements 
that people like from different designs

<nicklally> it probably won’t be all or nothing

<michaelv> yeah, which in all likelihood each one 
will have elements all find favorable

<Jay> I would be interested in creating a 
wireframe, though I’ll have to wait to see a 
couple examples so I can feel comfortable putting 
something together that makes sense to people who 
know what a wireframe is supposed to look like.

<michaelv> basically, a simple explanation is 
getting out a piece of paper and drawing boxes 
where different features go (menus, newswire, 
sections, calendar, resources, slideshows, etc

<michaelv> creating a basic design layout

<nicklally> yeah, mine usually look something 
like this: 
<http://totheweb.com/images/sub/wire_frame_example.gif>totheweb.com/images/sub/wire_frame_exam...

<nicklally> although, i guess some people throw 
in some color, which is kinda nice: 
<http://totheweb.com/images/sub/wire_frame_example_home.gif>totheweb.com/images/sub/wire_frame_exam...

<michaelv> you could do that and scan it in, or 
use illustrator or some other program to create 
visual slices, label them and save it for web

<michaelv> thanks nick

<michaelv> yes, exactly what I was gettin at

<nicklally> so, maybe we can have people look 
over our rough sitemap and refine it.

<nicklally> and then whoever wants can work on their own wireframe

<michaelv> 
<https://we.riseup.net/imc-alt/step-one-sitemap>we.riseup.net/imc-alt/step-one-sitemap

<nicklally> then we can come together, make 
adjustments, integrate different sketches and come up with a master wireframe.

<Jay> Thanks for the wireframe example, nick. And 
yeah, I think having people talk about the rough sitemap right now makes sense.

<michaelv> it is wikid on the crabgrass group for all to edit

<michaelv> semi rough notes at this point

<michaelv> but basically what we have talked about overall

<nicklally> great. it would be nice for the 
programmers to look it over. and people who have ideas!

<nicklally> should we talk about a timeframe?

<Jay> A timeframe sounds great.

<michaelv> yes

<nicklally> and what do people think of this 
initial design process i just suggested?

<nicklally> oh, maybe timeframe first

<nicklally> sorry to jump ahead.

<nicklally> should someone send an email to the 
list so people can start looking over the sitemap?

<nicklally> then we can give people a window of time to make their revisions?

<michaelv> yes, also I am creating a task list for the topic timeframe

<Jay> I like that. I think in its current form 
the site map is a bit confusing, so maybe we 
should take a day or two and make it as clear as 
possible on the wiki before we send everyone there.

<nicklally> ok, a week to revise the sitemap? or is that long enough?

<nicklally> good idea Jay.

<michaelv> yes, agreed

<Jay> I’d say we should give people a couple 
weeks to bounce their sitemap idea around.

<michaelv> the page needs to be cleaned up a bit

<nicklally> we could even make it into an image with arrows and stuff

<nicklally> ok, that sounds good

<Jay> I’m especially interested in making sure 
Strypey gets a chance to do that.

<nicklally> ha. when does he return to earth?

<michaelv> can he land in Lancaster?

<Jay> :))

<michaelv> ok, timeframe

<Jay> Michael, could you clean up the wiki about 
the site map and make it intelligible?
<michaelv> what would we say would be our first 
one on the list, post sitemap to the list and wait two weeks for input?
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<nicklally> give strypey a chance to look it 
over, then send an email, then give people a couple weeks to revise?

<michaelv> on the task it can just read “Post 
sitemap proposal and allow list members two weeks 
from this date to make comments or modifications

<nicklally> sounds good. then we can give anyone 
who wants a couple more weeks to make their own wireframes?

<michaelv> that would be the second timeframe, then?

<Jay> I’d say we post the sitemap to the list and 
leave a two week window, but those of us who are 
into the design process should communicate a bit 
on the alternatives list to give updates. For 
example, when I suggest a revised sitemap I’ll 
e-mail the list and say so. That way there can be 
the sense of building momentum, rather than just a “see you in two weeks” feel.

<nicklally> yeah, i like that

<Jay> We shouldn’t overwhelm the list with too 
much, but we should impart the notion that this process is underway.

<michaelv> ;)

<Jay> So Michael, maybe once you’ve fixed up the 
wiki, drop an e-mail to me/Nick/josh/Aaron/Qwerty 
to let us know. We’ll take a quick look, make any 
little updates and then let you know to e-mail 
the alternatives list. We can start the two week ticker from that point. Good?

<michaelv> ok, as far as crabgrass goes, we can 
set a date for when it is due­when should that be?

<nicklally> then maybe we can meet after the 
sitemap is revised, and/or after the wireframes are in.

<Jay> I think meeting again after the sitemap is revised sounds good.

<michaelv> ok, I can do that now for crabgrass

<michaelv> want that updated on the openforums wiki too

<michaelv> ?

<Jay> I think that makes sense.

<nicklally> i’d say yes

<michaelv> ok, will do by tomorrow then

<nicklally> on a sidenote, there could be better 
instructions for irc posted somewhere

<nicklally> it’s a bit confusing

<michaelv> yes, as far as crabgrass goes, the 
group front page can include them, as well as the open forums

<nicklally> but yeah, i think this is a good start

<michaelv> yes

<Jay> I think this is a really good start. I’m 
excited that we’re finally started at all!

<nicklally> i think we can really start getting a 
lot done with this structure. it’s been good 
meeting to make this all seem more doable.

<michaelv> I am happy to be involved with this as 
it will also help out the lpimc process too

<nicklally> yeah!

<michaelv> before we log out, shall we set a tentative next time??

<michaelv> like two weeks from today?

<nicklally> ok, are weekends best?

<michaelv> usually, and evenings

<nicklally> so it will be a little over two weeks before the sitemap deadline

<Jay> Sunday evenings are usually best for me, 
though most nights after 9pm I’m around­the 
kiddies go to bed by then most of the time.

<nicklally> so maybe we should say three weeks?

<nicklally> unless the wiki gets cleaned up and email sent out really quickly


<michaelv> that would be the 27th

<Jay> I can do the 27th.

<nicklally> ok, i’m in

<michaelv> i will have this one clean in a 
minute, openforums will have to be done tomorrow

<michaelv> me too

<Jay> With a lot of good communication via 
crabgrass, the alternatives list and maybe even 
(gasp) the telephone between then. :))

<nicklally> and jay, you mentioned you wanted 
strypey to see it. did you mean before it goes to the list?

<michaelv> yes, indeed. Just set up the first timeframe task to crabgrass

<Jay> Nah, I just want to make sure Strypey gets 
a chance to chime in on the sitemap before we move on.

<nicklally> ok, great

<nicklally> will three weeks give him enough time?

<michaelv> i think three weeks is a fair amount of time

<Jay> I’m not sure, but we can try. If not, he’ll 
understand. Plus, I’m sure whatever we agree upon will develop a lot over time.

<michaelv> surtenly

<nicklally> yeah, you’re right. ok, so meeting on 
the 27th. same time? anything else?

<Jay> After all these years of using IRC I’m stll 
a novice. Does anyone know if it’s possible to 
grab a log of this conversation and post a link somewhere?

<michaelv> nah, sleep

<michaelv> yes, but I forget

<nicklally> this is my first time!

<michaelv> just copy and past
<nicklally> file­>save on my program (colloquy)
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<Jay> Ah, I see. I’m using mIRC. It gives me a 
chance to go to a log, which I’m sure I can copy and paste.
<michaelv> xchat
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<nicklally> oops, i just lost my connection.

<Jay> I’ll copy and paste and figure out within a 
day or two how to post it to the crabgrass wiki 
or the open plans wiki or somewhere.

<nicklally> but i’ll talk to you guys soon

<michaelv> i can do it with xchat

<Jay> Great Michael. If you can do it with xchat, go for it.

<michaelv> as soon as we finish I will

<michaelv> and post it to the crabgrass as a wiki

<michaelv> and email it to you too

<michaelv> so you can post it to the list, attached i mean

<Jay> Great! Thanks everyone. I’m really excited 
about the development of finally having a meeting 
to talk about development. I really look forward to working with all of you.

<michaelv> peace

<Jay> peas.
<nicklally> Yeah. Later.
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