[Imc-alternatives] a note for non-geeks on the current code situation

[Jay]

Strypey,

Thank you so much for this clarification.  It helps focus so much of 
what we've talked about for the last year, and what has been so 
daunting and confusing.

A few months ago when we decided (more or less) to go with the 
PhillyIMC/Drupal I was excited about that.  Then we started to float 
while the PhillyIMC put together its site.  In the meantime, the 
Indymedia techs offered what seemed to be an amazing scenario -- that 
they would have a unified code decision soon, and that they would 
entertain the idea of working with the alternatives site as one of 
the first interations of that.  Over the last few months that has 
floated too....

So, now I think we're back to vagueness.  We have the Drupal, Plone, 
Indycore, Cake-Php options....but you're right, the talk could go on 
forever if we don't finally make (or remake) a decision.

I really appreciate the offer by Dimitris to co-bottomline a 
Plone/Indycore site with Dave F.  I agree that leaves us vulnerable 
if either one of them gets too busy, but what they're offering is 
something we lack in Drupal -- a couple people willing to put the 
time in to make things tick.

In general I still feel comfortable with the idea of our going with 
Drupal beause of all the things we've discussed before.  Though, even 
though we have PhillyIMC working on their site and sharing energy 
with Alternatives, we haven't found anyone (or a couple anyones) to 
say, "I'm going to bottomline the development of the Drupal version 
of the Alternatives site."  We have a lot of Drupal support staff, 
but we don't have a unifying driving individual or two or three or 
more to make it happen.

Or do we?  Has that changed in these months?  Is there anyone out 
there (or, again, more than one anyone) who would take that plunge 
and say, "I will help make the Drupal version of the Alternatives 
site come together?"  We now have the PhillyIMC site as a jumping-off 
point, which is something we didn't have before, so maybe we're closer.

If we find bottomliners for a Drupal version, can host on axxs and 
are already working with Nick and others to put thought toward design 
and navivigation, we could maybe actually get this thing to happen.

Anyone?
Jay


At 3/9/2008, you wrote:
>Kia ora koutou
>
>To summarize what's been said before about the great cms comparison project
>that's been running for the last few months...
>
>The reason for the great imc-cms discussion is to free our shrinking 
>global pool
>of Indy geeks from the (now unnecessary) work of maintaining and 
>supporting the
>second generation Indy-specific cms software (SF Active, Mir etc). 
>By choosing a
>community-developed project (like Drupal, Plone, or PhpCake) as a 
>platform for a
>third generation Indy software, Indy geeks only need to maintain code for
>Indy-specific needs (like the ability to hide articles as well as 
>just deleting
>them), rather than having to maintain and document an entire cms. 
>Also, they can
>spend time working on new functions and interface improvements. Because of the
>wider developer base, additions and improvements are likely to be 
>developed and
>rolled out more quickly anyway.
>
>What non-geeks need to keep in mind about software engineering debates...
>
>There will *always* be technical debates among geeks about the best software
>package, language, operating system etc They need to consider the 
>pros and cons
>of what is available now. They also need to futureproof, considering how
>sustainable a given software project is, and whether it will grow 
>and mature as
>fast as another alternative. The other fact that needs to be 
>emphasized (I think
>it's so obvious to geeks it's often overlooked) is that people will 
>champion the
>language or project that they are most skilled in. This makes sense, as they
>have the expert knowledge to recommend the system they know best. 
>Also, there's
>no point them singing the praises of a project they have heard great things
>about, if they have no ability to offer practical support to make it happen.
>Therefore, the more geeks you add to the debate, the more complex 
>and insoluble
>the discussion will become.
>
>What this means for the imc-alternatives working group...
>
>To use a building analogy, we are proposing a bridge. We know which 
>waterway we
>want to cross, and where we want to get from, and to. So now we have engineers
>debating over the best place for the bridge, and the best style of bridge to
>build. These debates could go on forever. Sooner or later we just 
>have to pick a
>design and hire some builders. Luckily for us, we can always migrate to a
>different software later on, just as you can initially build a wooden foot
>bridge, then later replace it with a steel road bridge (or whatever).
>
> From what I understand (and I welcome corrections or clarifications here) the
>benefits of PHPCake lie in its potential to distribute the job of serving the
>various Indy sites over various servers. This would potentially make the sites
>more reliable, and make it harder for any given site to be taken down. It's
>something that's been talked about for a long time, and it's exciting that we
>might have finally found a way to do it. But getting this software written,
>tested and working, and rolling it out across all the Indy sites, is a *huge*
>project. Even if PHPCake emerges as the consensus of the imc-cms process, it
>could be a few months or a few years before the process of migrating the whole
>network to the new cms is complete.
>
>However, for the imc-alternatives project to get our 1.0 site up, we only need
>three things:
>1) a server willing to host it
>2) a team of geeks willing to agree on one existing software base and build it
>for us
>3) designers, editors and journalists to make it look pretty, make 
>it usable and
>fill it with media for users to use
>
>Personally I favour going ahead with Drupal for imc-alt 1.0. The reasons:
>1) A number of imc sites are already using Drupal, including Philly, 
>whose geeks
>are willing to actively support this work for us.
>2) We only have one geek (Dave from Axxs) who could support a Plone site
>(correct me if I'm wrong) and I dislike having single points of failure, or
>resting such a responsibility on one person.
>2) Other options like CakePhP and Ruby on Rails may be options for the future,
>but they are works in progress, whereas we know Drupal is ready for imc use.
>
>So, do we have a server willing to host an iteration of Drupal for us? Do we
>have a team of geeks willing to put the site together for us? Do we have a
>designer willing to implement our desired look and feel? Assuming 
>the answer is
>yes, I say we go for it! I would even suggest setting up an
>imc-alternatives-tech list where the nuts and bolts of getting this done could
>be worked out without boggling the minds of the non-techs, with regular
>report-backs to this list in plain language ;)
>
>That leaves the non-geeks on this list with three tasks:
>1) Sort out how we want the site to look and feel, and how want it to work for
>us as admins, editors, publishers, and readers (the concept of users 
>stories was
>useful here).
>2) Get an alternatives category added to our local IMC and start 
>publishing the
>stories we would want to see on the 1.0 site once it exists
>3) Continue to promote the concept of imc-alternatives and encourage 
>more people
>to get involved
>
>I may be disappearing for the rest of March and April, to help crew the NORML
>CannaBus on it's first national tour promoting drug law reform in Aotearoa. If
>this happens I will attempt to check my email periodically but won't 
>be able to
>put much time in for a while. Would be thrilling to see consensus on our name,
>and software, so these tasks can be delegated and some more forward 
>motion achieved.
>
>Kia kaha koutou! (keep up the good work all)
>Strypes
>
>Jay wrote:
> > Michael and everyone,
> >
> > At 2/23/2008, lancaster-imc at riseup.net wrote:
> >> Hey, I just wanted to let everyone know I updated the wiki for IMC-Alt by
> >> adding the top horizontal menu to all the pages for easier navigation.
> >> Also, I  noticed on the tech page (I think) that it talks about Drupal as
> >> the first install. From what I have gathered things have changed and now
> >> php cake is the cms language of choice--Someone with the direct line on
> >> the specific tech plan should probably update that page.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >
> > It's confusing.  Over the last few months I've been enthusiastic
> > about our going with whatever backend code the imc-cms group decides
> > upon.  However, as time goes on with no clear CMS choice, I've become
> > less enthusiastic.
> >
> > I honestly am not sure what I think now.  There is still a lot of
> > positive drupal energy in this group, but we haven't had anyone step
> > forward and say "we're going to make this site work in drupal,
> > darnit, so let's go!"  I like the arguments Ryan has for CakePHP, and
> > am intrigued by the possible choice to go that direction.
> >
> > I really don't want our project to wait indefinitely to get ourselves
> > going just so we can line up with the general indy code.  However,
> > the benefits of being part of the overall network push toward a
> > unified code are really appealing.
> >
> > What do other people think about this?  Should we continue to
> > wait?  Or should we redouble our efforts to build something based on
> > the PhillyIMC drupal code, as we agreed upon a long while ago?
> >
> > Jay
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