[Imc-alternatives] DESIGN: log of wireframe irc chat, May 4

[Jay]

Hi,

Nick, Michael and I just had a really good IRC meeting to start 
coming to agreement on wifeframes for the alternatives site.  Here is 
the log.  We were mainly looking at Nick's proposed wireframes, which 
are linked as attachments on the "wireframes" page of the 
imc-alternatives group on Cragbrass (we.riseup.net), and going 
through them top to bottom to come to some kind of agreement on 
layout.  We didn't get all the way through so we're going to keep 
communicating via e-mail, trying to hammer out something this 
week.  If you want to participate let us know.

Jay

Session Start: Sun May 04 21:02:57 2008
Session Ident: #alternatives
Session Close: Sun May 04 21:02:57 2008

Session Start: Sun May 04 21:02:57 2008
Session Ident: #alternatives
03[21:02] * Now talking in #alternatives
01[21:03] <Jay> Hi folks.
[21:03] <nicklally> Hello! Shall we start?
01[21:04] <Jay> Sure!  You're here, Michael, and Querty...?  Davo...?
[21:04] <@davo> hello
[21:04] <@davo> at work but here
[21:05] <nicklally> OK. Michael--can we add your wireframe to crabgrass?
[21:07] <nicklally> hopefully michael will come back to use here
[21:07] <nicklally> any initial thoughts jay?
[21:08] <michaelv> yes, working on it
[21:08] <nicklally> oh, cool. hi.
[21:09] <michaelv> I will add it as it, have not fixed the bottom, 
and don't know yet how to use gimp to create the kinds of wireframes 
you and nick made--too many years of photoshop
01[21:09] <Jay> Thoughts about Michael's wireframe or in general?
[21:09] <nicklally> well, i'd like to see its current version first.
[21:10] <nicklally> in general, i like a lot of the ideas we've been 
throwing around.
[21:10] <nicklally> tabs, menus up top, simplified navigation, 
simplified layout, etc
[21:11] <nicklally> i've never worked on layout with others not in 
the same room, but i think we're on the same page with a lot of this 
stuff and i'm excited to see what we come up with.
[21:13] <michaelv> ok, I put it up, not much different as I had a 
weekend full of kids, etc
[21:14] <nicklally> ok, i'm seeing it now.
[21:14] <michaelv> and so mainly it is still the top block idea yahoo-like
[21:14] <michaelv> somehow the right feature text did not compress, 
but oh well. I will fixt that later
[21:14] <michaelv> I will add more to the bottom, and such next few days
[21:14] <michaelv> I pulled this from a website called coda coza
[21:15] <michaelv> liked certain layout aspects of it
01[21:15] <Jay> I'm looking on the crabgrass wireframe page. Is that 
where you put it?
[21:15] <nicklally> i like the menu being at the top and the easy 
access to categories
[21:15] <michaelv> I think..yes
[21:15] <nicklally> yeah, at the bottom of attachments
[21:15] <nicklally> i think we should work on a more simplified menu
[21:16] <michaelv> the categories, etc could have menus with 
sub-categories that pop up to the right next to the thumbnail features
[21:16] <michaelv> yes, definitely, just putting text to fill the space
[21:16] <nicklally> and it's designed too wide. it's set for a 1024 
pixel monitor, but i think we should design at 800 pixels, which will 
change the layout space
[21:16] <michaelv> the top horizontal should be compressed too
[21:17] <nicklally> ok, i see. so a few would be main choices with 
sub-choices popping up.
[21:17] <michaelv> I think it is for 800, but the background fits any screen
[21:17] <nicklally> no, it's 1024
[21:17] <michaelv> that's just my screen
[21:17] <nicklally> the laptop i'm on is 1024 and it fills the screen
[21:17] <michaelv> the top scrolling text is text I put in
[21:17] <nicklally> the text does, that is. gray bar to gray bar
[21:18] <michaelv> well, just a sample from a website I really liked 
for content layout
[21:19] <michaelv> but I think it makes sense to have a website that 
can be good looking in many different screen widths
[21:19] <nicklally> yeah, i like the way things are organized.
[21:19] <nicklally> we could talk about whether or not we want a 
fixed width site, as opposed to a variable width site.
[21:19] <michaelv> the "thumbs" features left of the main one could 
be clicked on, which would change the default feature
[21:20] <nicklally> i tend towards fixed width as they maintain the 
integrity of the site design better
[21:20] <michaelv> I think variable sites are better, especially for 
really small formats, like ipods
[21:20] <nicklally> they usually don't shrink below 800 though, do they?
[21:21] <nicklally> what's a good variable site to look at?
[21:21] <michaelv> actually, in web design class we were taught to 
make websites fit all formats
[21:21] <michaelv> including micro
[21:21] <nicklally> i've also done some experimenting with iphones 
and fixed width sites look pretty good on them since they have the 
zoom function
01[21:21] <Jay> How much, if at all, with the size we design for 
affect the general layout?
[21:22] <nicklally> i'd say a lot
[21:22] <michaelv> I think it can be done with css, and there are 
probably pre-written codes that can be cut and pasted in to make it 
work, but I am not a web designer so I should be quiet on that issue
[21:23] <michaelv> do we have an agenda?
01[21:23] <Jay> Ah, an agenda!  No, not really, but I'd say we 
should start by figuring out where we absolutely agree, move to where 
we generally agree, and then isolate points for discussion and see 
what we can get through.
[21:24] <nicklally> ok, that sounds good
[21:24] <michaelv> yes
[21:24] <michaelv> agreed
01[21:24] <Jay> So, for example, we all agree on the basic concept 
of having the main site navigation up top, with text navigation at the bottom.
01[21:24] <Jay> (seem to agree.)
[21:24] <michaelv> I agree
[21:24] <nicklally> yeah, i like that
[21:25] <michaelv> I like keeping people on the frontpage as much as 
possible, but also providing specific page sets for, say, categories, 
which are in the same format
[21:26] <nicklally> yeah
01[21:26] <Jay> What else do we agree upon?  Do we agree that the 
main sections should be the core of the basic navigation up top, and 
each will lead to its own page.  Like News (front page), 
knowledge-base, wants/needs, networking.
[21:26] <michaelv> Meaning, we want people to check out the content 
below the screen, but also navigate the site
[21:26] <michaelv> my idea
[21:26] <michaelv> is yes, do this
[21:27] <nicklally> yeah, i like that. with the possibility of some 
sort of submenus being shortcuts.
01[21:28] <Jay> Very good.  Maybe we should all look at one of the 
sets wireframes for more ideas of what we all agree on.  I'd suggest 
we look at nick's because it's the most stripped-down.
[21:28] <michaelv> also, I think it would be good if we had the main 
feature be able to unfold on the front page, which would cause people 
to read it, but also see other content that was hidden below the 
screen, and from there they would also get to these other parts of the site
[21:28] <nicklally> can we think of the main subjects being "landing 
pages" or mini homepages?
01[21:28] <Jay> landing pages/mini homepages sounds good to me.
[21:28] <nicklally> what do you mean by unfold?
[21:30] <michaelv> hmm, like as if to say you read the abstract, and 
if you click on "read more.." the main article opens up on the front 
page, pushing the content below down? and this could be put back up 
the same way. this is like menues where you click on it and a 
sub-list pops down
[21:30] <michaelv> does that make sense?
[21:30] <nicklally> yeah, ok. i like that.
[21:31] <michaelv> I just think it would cause people to see other 
frontpage content they might not have
[21:31] <michaelv> by the typical click on the feature and be pulled 
away from the main page
[21:32] <nicklally> or, if it become unfeasible, it should be at 
least a good summary with a read more link with other content being 
visible below without scrolling
[21:32] <michaelv> yes, that too
[21:32] <michaelv> that would be something no one has done, to my knowledge
[21:32] <nicklally> articles expanding by clicking on them you mean?
[21:32] <michaelv> at the bottom of the summary could be "read the 
full version" hyperlinked
[21:32] <michaelv> yes
[21:32] <nicklally> i've seen that with some mootools functionality
[21:32] <michaelv> ok
[21:32] <nicklally> so it's definitely doable with that framework
[21:32] <michaelv> good, I was hoping so
[21:33] <nicklally> i think we'll just have to pay attention to the 
accessibility options of adding a lot of javascript to the page, but 
we can figure that out later
[21:33] <michaelv> this again would be a way to have lots of info, 
but compressed unless visitors click to expand
[21:33] <nicklally> and yeah, jay, i think that's a good idea to move 
on to a wireframe as a starting poing
[21:33] <@davo> http://www.fightdemback.org has this functionality, 
simple with javascript
[21:33] <nicklally> yeah, michael, i definitely like that idea. and 
the tabs give a similar sort of functionality as well.
[21:34] <michaelv> yeah, some of these ideas can be on the next version too
[21:34] <michaelv> yes, definitely
[21:34] <nicklally> good call davo
[21:34] <@davo> doesn't take a whole library, unless you actually 
want to do an ajax call
[21:34] <nicklally> hmmm.... yes. although we're not quite to the 
point of thinking about that yet. thanks for that link
[21:35] <@davo> np
[21:35] <michaelv> davo, thanks! that is exactly what I was talking about
[21:36] <nicklally> ok, so another point we can agree on is exploring 
the possibility of adding javascript/ajax functionality to improve 
navigation and simplify the design.
[21:36] <michaelv> I think having that sort of functionality will get 
people to see content they might overlook
[21:36] <michaelv> yes, yes
[21:36] <nicklally> is someone compiling these?
[21:36] <@davo> also regarding social networking .. it would be worth 
checking out elgg.org and just plugging that into the authentication 
for instant social networking
[21:36] <nicklally> it could be a good reference for later
[21:36] <michaelv> I will compile the list later on
[21:36] <nicklally> great, thanks!
[21:37] <michaelv> and put it to the crabgrass as well as the listserve
[21:37] <nicklally> great.
[21:37] <nicklally> yeah, elgg looks like something to look into 
later as well.
[21:37] <michaelv> have to look at that....
[21:37] <nicklally> ok, wireframes. shall we look at them?
[21:38] <michaelv> yes
[21:38] <nicklally> ok, where to start?
01[21:38] <Jay> Yes yes.  Looking at Nick's right now, and thinking 
about it top to bottom.
01[21:39] <Jay> looking at nick's home page one
[21:39] <nicklally> should we start with my home....
[21:39] <nicklally> ok
[21:39] <michaelv> ok
01[21:39] <Jay> We seem to agree on a logo in the top left with a 
bar stretching all the way across, so that goes on the happy list.
01[21:39] <Jay> I like the login/join/contact text in the top right.
[21:40] <nicklally> that was one question i had. whether it should be 
like that, or like my other sketch where you can login from the 
homepage. thoughts?
01[21:40] <Jay> Actually, I was just going to suggest that. It's 
that way on your knowledge-base page and I like it.
01[21:41] <Jay> It gets the login visible but we don't have to use 
up space below.
[21:41] <michaelv> I like the nav/categories on the left better, 
personally. I think people are used to looking left for menus
[21:41] <nicklally> ok, i think it makes sense for usability to have 
it everywhere, but aesthetically, i like it a bit less
[21:41] <michaelv> yes, and as with crabgrass, if you click on login 
the login/password boxes expand same bar
[21:42] <nicklally> so you would put the category box left of the 
main articles?
[21:42] <michaelv> that was what I was thinking, how does everyone else feel>
[21:42] <michaelv> ?
[21:42] <nicklally> one reason i like the categories on the right is...
[21:43] <nicklally> that the big box on the left can contain info 
about the site, maybe the global map for the main homepage and 
landing page descriptions on the landing pages
01[21:43] <Jay> I'm still lagging behind in talking about the login, 
but we can shift to categories for a second...
[21:43] <nicklally> to make it immediately clear what the site is 
about, since it's the first box you will see. that's my reasoning
[21:44] <nicklally> oh yeah, i wasn't clear on which login style you 
like better michael.
[21:44] <michaelv> ok, and considering the top block I put out we 
could save some content space by having "more featured" in the thumb 
format left or right of featured article
01[21:44] <Jay> I put the catgories on the left, but I like Nick's 
layout of having the nice big two-column main feature box at the top left.
[21:44] <michaelv> I like the top right way you did it
[21:44] <michaelv> I think that is best
[21:44] <nicklally> on the homepage?
[21:45] <nicklally> (because it's different on the other two)
01[21:45] <Jay> hmm.  It could be different on the home page, 
because we're more into the aesthetic impact....
[21:45] <michaelv> yes, and also on other site pages, with the 
similar formats ofcourse
[21:45] <nicklally> we're talking about the login, right?
01[21:46] <Jay> yes.
[21:46] <michaelv> yes
[21:46] <nicklally> i would argue that the header navigation should 
be the same throughout
[21:46] <michaelv> I say keep it in the same place consistently
[21:46] <nicklally> for ease-of-use
01[21:46] <Jay> Well, that does make sense.
[21:46] <michaelv> yes
01[21:47] <Jay> Can you think of any sites you know with a login in 
the top right?  We can see how it looks in action.
[21:47] <michaelv> side note: how does everyone feel about the 
scrolling banner idea I have, with headlines, alerts, etc? hyperlinked
[21:47] <nicklally> rhizome.org
01[21:47] <Jay> Ah.  let me look.
01[21:47] <Jay> I think it's nice.  It doesn't get in the way of the 
look of things.
[21:47] <michaelv> I like how phillyimc has a features box, but doing 
this helps save content and get feartures, networking, events, etc in 
one scrolling space
[21:48] <nicklally> are we talking about the same thing?
[21:48] <michaelv> oh, I had a side note
[21:48] <michaelv> since we are at the top of the page
01[21:48] <Jay> I'm talking about the login.  We can talk scrolling 
thing next.
[21:48] <michaelv> ok
[21:48] <michaelv> agreed
01[21:49] <Jay> Michael, what do you think about the way the login 
looks at rhizome.org?  Top right seems like a nice place to me, and 
it can be consistent throughout the site.
[21:49] <michaelv> looking
[21:49] <michaelv> http://rhizome.org
[21:50] <michaelv> what about having it the way Nick has it, but when 
clicked on it expands same line into "user name" password boxes?
[21:51] <michaelv> once logged in it is simply "Log out"
[21:51] <nicklally> i think we have to be careful about using too 
many expand features. especially with things that have to be tight 
graphically, like the header
[21:51] <michaelv> or, we could use the power symbol for login?
[21:51] <nicklally> power symbol?
01[21:51] <Jay> In theory I like that, but I'm a dummy when it comes 
to navigating web sites.  My eye knows the look of the two boxes, 
whereas I may miss the word "login"
[21:51] <michaelv> ok, so what about having them same line, but smaller?
[21:52] <michaelv> or just smaller, I like it up there in the top 
area, definitely
01[21:52] <Jay> My answer is pretty much the same, that the two line 
login is so standard that that's what I look for when I'm figuring 
out where to login. It can be small though.
[21:53] <michaelv> I just think many sites use up too much room with 
the top bar area
[21:53] <michaelv> it could be half that size and still fit the logo/graphic
[21:53] <nicklally> i'm going to argue against making things small
[21:53] <michaelv> have the height I mean
[21:53] <michaelv> not too small
[21:53] <michaelv> just smaller
01[21:53] <Jay> Not too small.
[21:53] <michaelv> or on the same line
[21:54] <nicklally> i would say it should be no smaller than rhizome, 
as that text is even getting on the small side
[21:54] <nicklally> or, we could push it down to the categories box
[21:55] <michaelv> I really like it up top like that
01[21:55] <Jay> Actually, I think top right is nice.  It really sets 
the login apart from other stuff on the page and says to the user 
"our priority is for you to join this site!"
[21:56] <michaelv> for an example of what I was talking about, log 
out of crabgrass, then log in from the top menu bar
[21:56] <nicklally> ok
[21:56] <nicklally> oh yeah, that is snazzy
[21:56] <michaelv> also says "username" and "password" by each box, 
which is useful
[21:56] <michaelv> that was what I mean
[21:56] <michaelv> meant
01[21:57] <Jay> That is snazzy.  But, on the we.riseup.net page 
there's a big login right there front and center.  So, I didn't even 
think of clicking on the text up top.
[21:57] <nicklally> true
[21:58] <michaelv> another login/out issue. should we direct people 
to this kind of login page when they log out, or keep them on the 
page they were on?
[21:58] <nicklally> oh, that's a big one!!
01[21:58] <Jay> Maybe, for the sake of moving forward, we can all 
agree on a top right login and tinker with the size as the design 
develops.  We're only coming up with recommendations anyway and 
others may convince us all to try something else in a later version.
[21:58] <nicklally> ok, yes. i like that jay
[21:58] <michaelv> yes, I get side tracked easily, adhd and all
01[21:58] <Jay> :)
[21:59] <michaelv> ok, so
[21:59] <nicklally> me too!!
01[21:59] <Jay> So, let's talk about scrolling news.
[21:59] <michaelv> we agree on login
[21:59] <michaelv> yes
[21:59] <nicklally> but i have time constraints tonight!!!
[21:59] <nicklally> great.
[21:59] <michaelv> well, moving along...:)
[21:59] <nicklally> ok. i don't think we need to figure out where 
login takes you yet.
[21:59] <michaelv> do we like it at the top
[21:59] <michaelv> me either, just had a thought, hard to stop myself 
from typing because I can type so fast
01[22:00] <Jay> I actually am not a big fan of sites that scroll 
stuff automatically without my asking.  I think to be able to make that choice.
[22:00] <nicklally> i think we should talk about it in the future, 
but i think making sketches of one or two pages will be an excellent 
way to get others involved in the process
[22:00] <michaelv> sure, sounds good to me
[22:00] <nicklally> what exactly are you referring to jay?
01[22:01] <Jay> I think Michael is talking about having a scroll bar 
with headlines?  Am I right about that?h
[22:01] <michaelv> down the road when users can add or subtract 
features scrolling news feeds could be one
[22:01] <nicklally> honestly i think there should be no scrolling, 
except for the main browser scrollbar
[22:01] <michaelv> yeah, top top of page.
[22:01] <michaelv> my idea was to have a way for different aspects of the site
[22:01] <michaelv> networking, features, events, etc in one spot.
01[22:02] <Jay> I like the idea of people being able to choose to 
have the headlines run across, but to not have that be a default.
[22:02] <michaelv> people might see something there and can click to it
[22:02] <michaelv> that makes sense
[22:02] <nicklally> oh, ok, that's a different type of scrolling.
01[22:02] <Jay> Right, we mean scrolling, not scrolling! :)
[22:02] <nicklally> yeah, i'd say no for default as well
[22:03] <nicklally> oh, right. i missed your intonation.  :D
01[22:03] <Jay> Is that another agreed point?  Offer options for 
lots of page customization later?
[22:03] <michaelv> I agree, but I like the idea, so when it is 
available I will have it :)
[22:03] <nicklally> sure
[22:03] <michaelv> yes yes
01[22:03] <Jay> Great.  (sorry to keep moving us along like a drill 
seargeant, but we're moving!)
[22:03] <nicklally> no, it's great jay!
[22:03] <michaelv> yes, this is moving along good
01[22:04] <Jay> What about the "about indymedia submenu" nick has on 
his home page wireframe
01[22:04] <Jay> I kind of like it.
01[22:04] <Jay> It looks great on rhizome.org
[22:05] <nicklally> i tend to always put about tabs on sites. i think 
it's important
[22:05] <michaelv> yes, that is cool, lancasternews.com does that too 
on their front page
[22:05] <michaelv> http://lancasteronline.com
[22:05] <nicklally> yeah, some other indymedias do too
[22:05] <michaelv> I think that is slick
[22:06] <michaelv> instead of drowning out other content with pop down menus
[22:06] <nicklally> i tend to click on people's about pages a lot, 
but i don't know if that's common
[22:06] <michaelv> on the phillyimc site they are conflicked with the 
fearture videos too
[22:06] <michaelv> I do too
[22:06] <michaelv> and contact
01[22:07] <Jay> I always click on about pages, and contact.
[22:07] <michaelv> I think "community" should be one of the top menu 
options too
[22:07] <nicklally> what's the difference between that and network
[22:07] <michaelv> can you sub-sub menus?
01[22:07] <Jay> Indymedia about pages and contact pages suck more 
often than not.
[22:07] <michaelv> agreed
[22:07] <nicklally> i would tend to vote against sub-sub, for 
ease-of-use and clarity
[22:08] <nicklally> but it's probably possible
[22:08] <michaelv> yeah, would actually get cumbersome
[22:08] <michaelv> might be good in some instances, but not overdone
01[22:08] <Jay> So would it be an "about indymedia" about line or 
"about the alternatives site?"
[22:08] <nicklally> so, i didn't think out my top menu buttons too 
much, so there's definitely room for refinement
[22:08] <michaelv> just "about" would fit
[22:08] <nicklally> that part i got straight from rhizome as an 
example that i liked.
[22:09] <michaelv> there could be separate sub categories relating to 
indymedia, alternatives, etc
01[22:09] <Jay> Oh, we're talking top buttons?  Or the little about 
line like on rhizome?
[22:09] <nicklally> i thought we were talking about the about/submenu box
[22:10] <michaelv> looking at rhizome about submenu model
[22:10] <nicklally> and yeah, i was thinking all those big buttons 
would have either submenu links that dropdown, or access to them on 
their landing pages.
01[22:11] <Jay> I think I understand.  Basically we're talking about 
using the same setup as in rhizome, with there being the main tabs 
over an "about the alternatives site text line," but when someone 
puts a mouse over a main tab, other options appear over the text 
line.  If that's what we're talkinga about, I'm game.  I like it.
[22:12] <nicklally> and i think the buttons should be big: 
http://www.bnet.com/, http://www.grooveshark.com/
01[22:12] <Jay> I'm all for big buttons.
[22:13] <nicklally> Yeah, that's what I was thinking, Jay. Although, 
not that i'm looking at my wireframe, it's starting to look too much 
like rhizome, at least the top part
01[22:14] <Jay> That's okay!  The graphics will be completely 
different of course, and I'm sure they'd steal from us if we came up 
with a good idea. :)
[22:14] <nicklally> Ha!
01[22:15] <Jay> Michael, do you like that idea too?
[22:15] <nicklally> although, i'm sure we could find a thousand 
models of the nearly identical layout... but it still feels a bit off
[22:15] <michaelv> take a look at how http://lancasteronline.com does 
the menu sub menu thang
[22:15] <michaelv> let me read back
01[22:16] <Jay> I think that's pretty cool too.  Basically the same idea.
[22:16] <nicklally> Yeah. I might want to revisit this a little after 
this meeting... i need to think about this a little more.
[22:17] <michaelv> I like how it is just text, but the way 
lancasteronline does it is cool too
[22:17] <michaelv> literally looks like tabs
[22:17] <nicklally> Can we have a quick discussion about layout. I 
don't want to rush, but I'm really itching to go here
[22:18] <michaelv> ok
[22:18] <nicklally> yeah, tabs are cool
01[22:18] <Jay> Sure.  We can also do as much as we can here and 
then continue this kind of conversation on e-mail.  We're getting 
into a pretty nice groove of communicating about things.
01[22:18] <Jay> So, talk layout.
[22:18] <nicklally> i picture us using them on some of the bottom 
boxes, which i think was mentioned before
[22:18] <michaelv> yes
[22:19] <nicklally> yeah, i think this is a really good meeting! and 
i hate to rush it, but we can have more!!
01[22:19] <Jay> As for layout, one idea before we go too far...
[22:19] <michaelv> and if we stay consistent between the top nav and 
other options people will move through the site better
[22:19] <michaelv> they will know to click on other tabs too
[22:19] <nicklally> true...
[22:19] <nicklally> hmmm.....
[22:20] <michaelv> which is why the lancasteronline format would work 
in this tabs conversatino
01[22:20] <Jay> One complaint I often have with IMC sites is that the "publish
01[22:20] <Jay> whoops...
01[22:20] <Jay> Publish button for the newsire is usually hard to find.
01[22:20] <Jay> so.
01[22:20] <Jay> so....
[22:20] <michaelv> yes, very
[22:20] <michaelv> we need to have a whole discussion on this issue, I think
01[22:20] <Jay> In looking at the indymedia.be site I liked their 
big "publish" button.
[22:20] <nicklally> although, i think we can also have an hierarchal 
(gasp!) order of buttons that makes some more obvious
01[22:20] <Jay> Well...
[22:20] <nicklally> which would be an argument against using the same 
kind of buttons throughout
[22:21] <nicklally> yes, i like making big buttons, especially for 
stuff that we want to stand out
01[22:21] <Jay> My thought was to have a big "publish" button on the 
news page, a big "submit knowledge base articles" button on the 
knowledge page, a big "join" button on the networking page and a big 
"submit wants/needs" button on that page, all in the same place.
[22:21] <nicklally> yeah, i like that.
[22:22] <nicklally> something like that can go in the big featured box
01[22:22] <Jay> That would provide consistency and also say "we want 
you to participate!"
[22:22] <nicklally> or, perhaps, in the category box
[22:22] <michaelv> I like that idea, again consistency
[22:22] <nicklally> either way, it will have ample room
[22:22] <michaelv> and would draw eyes to look at the same area
01[22:22] <Jay> I was thinking, actually, of that going at the top 
of the category box (where nick has the categories, on the top right.)
[22:22] <michaelv> template formatting
01[22:23] <Jay> I have that as part of my wireframes, so you can 
check out how it would look on each page.
[22:23] <nicklally> yeah, either way could work. i guess it will 
depend on how we strategize the design. ie: whether the featured box 
is an "about this page/come join us" box, or if it's a "look at this 
featured article we want you to read" box
[22:24] <michaelv> speaking about usability, and making things clear 
to new users..
01[22:24] <Jay> I think the former -- "look at this featured article."
[22:24] <nicklally> jay--i think that could definitely be a good solution.
01[22:24] <Jay> That will provide a balance with the participatory 
aspects of the site.
[22:24] <michaelv> I think having a "?" or other mini button next to 
things like "publish" that pop up a window describing what publish 
means makes sense too
[22:25] <nicklally> yeah, i think we should all be thinking about 
these strategies. i know i need to think about them more, as they 
will really inform the design and layout
[22:25] <nicklally> yes, help buttons are great
01[22:25] <Jay> I like help buttons too.
[22:25] <michaelv> when I first discovered indymedia it was some time 
before I realized i could publish
[22:26] <michaelv> I was used to being a consumer
[22:26] <nicklally> i think we can really do a lot to make indymedia 
easier to use for new users. i imagine it can be intimidating!
01[22:26] <Jay> Yeah, that's a very consistent thing.
01[22:26] <Jay> Agreed.
[22:26] <michaelv> it was very intimidating, esp once I got involved 
and starting reading the jargon
[22:27] <michaelv> finding ways to use familiar terms will keep from 
isolating our collective and new users
01[22:27] <Jay> So let's get back to the publish/join buttons.  Do 
you think we should try them where they are on my wireframes?  I like 
the balance of the big two-column "look at this feature" box with the 
nice big "publish your feature" box on the top of the right column.
[22:28] <nicklally> yeah, i like that.
[22:28] <michaelv> let me look...
[22:29] <nicklally> one thing i had a hard time conceptualizing is 
the placement of the select your country links. one place i thought, 
for the global site, would be a map (like michael described) that 
would be clickable/zoomable in the featured box.
[22:29] <nicklally> then country sites could just have them at the 
bottom, like belgium
[22:29] <nicklally> but i don't know if that's the best solution
[22:30] <michaelv> yes, having a global map, where when you click on 
the region and it zooms would be sweet.
[22:30] <michaelv> as for publish
[22:30] <nicklally> and another question is: do we even need a global 
site? because the global site could just be a splash page that allows 
you to choose your country...
[22:30] <michaelv> I like the idea you have Jay about having that and 
the other page set options being in the same place
[22:31] <nicklally> but, i don't think we need the clickable map 
visible on the homepage of individual country pages
[22:31] <nicklally> just the main page, because if you're at your 
country page, you're probably where you need to be
[22:31] <michaelv> perhaps the word "publish" might be the problem 
for new users. Is there a word that would be better at encouraging 
people to publish articles?
01[22:32] <Jay> So, just to focus on the one thing first, we'll give 
the publish button a try at the top of the right column?
[22:32] <michaelv> oh, the map I was thinking about was for a visual 
imc-cities map
[22:32] <nicklally> yes, i like that jay
[22:32] <michaelv> instead of the uber-long list of over 150 and growing
01[22:32] <Jay> Michael, you're right, "publish" may be hard to understand.
[22:32] <michaelv> I have been contemplating a better way to word it
[22:32] <michaelv> and it does not have to be in only one place either
01[22:32] <Jay> We don't need to come up with a different word right 
here, but yeah, let's think seriously about an easier way to put that.
[22:32] <nicklally> could publish be accompanied by text to make it 
clearer? or, if someone has the word.
[22:33] <nicklally> ok, yes.
[22:33] <nicklally> i really have to go!!
[22:33] <michaelv> could be a sub-menu option under "contribute" or "about"
[22:33] <michaelv> ok nick
[22:33] <nicklally> contribute is a good word!
01[22:34] <Jay> Sorry you have to go, but I think we got a great 
deal done?  Should we just keep this kind of talk going over e-mail, 
working from top to bottom of nick's wireframe, trying to come to 
agreemoent on each bit?
[22:34] <michaelv> I like contribute as a menu tab, and donate, 
publish, volunteer could be sub menus.....so, I like your idea with 
the "publish button up top large and easy to see, however we word it
01[22:34] <Jay> I meant, I think we got a great deal done!
[22:35] <michaelv> yes, nick, do you want to combine wireframes based 
on what we have all put together so far?
[22:35] <nicklally> ok, why don't we talk about the number of columns
[22:35] <michaelv> three?
[22:35] <nicklally> real quick, and then we can refine wireframes 
this week and come up with new proposals?
[22:36] <nicklally> so, my idea was to have two big columns up top, 
as the main things we want people to see, breaking into three columns below
[22:36] <michaelv> I think three would be max, not all the same width
01[22:36] <Jay> I like the two at top/three below layout.
[22:36] <michaelv> yes,
[22:36] <michaelv> yes, me too
[22:36] <nicklally> i like this site for their bottom layout a lot: 
http://www.bnet.com/
[22:37] <michaelv> that was what I meant, was talking about below the 
main feature blocvk
[22:37] <nicklally> things are separated with colors, real clearly. 
articles are just big headlines. i likes.
01[22:38] <Jay> It has the big top feature we've been talking about 
with the 1-2-3-4-5 options, which is nice.
02[22:38] * michaelv (michaelv at 2d9871.7eba51.78b577.dcaa48) Quit 
(EOF from client)
01[22:38] <Jay> I'm not so sure I like the colored boxes, but I 
could be convinced.
01[22:38] <Jay> I do like the separation the boxes creates though -- 
again, simplicity.
[22:38] <nicklally> oh, and i think many subpages could be two colums 
(see my knowledge section). individual articles and stuff...
[22:39] <nicklally> yeah, well we can do all kinds of different 
color/no color mockups once we start designing
[22:39] <nicklally> and individual countries will be able to easily 
change these aspects with a couple lines of css
01[22:40] <Jay> I see the two columns on the subpages.  I like that too.
03[22:41] * michaelv (michaelv at 2d9871.7eba51.78b577.dcaa48) has 
joined #alternatives
[22:41] <michaelv> oye, screen crashed
[22:41] <nicklally> welcome back michael!
[22:41] <michaelv> hey
[22:41] <nicklally> here's what you missed:
[22:41] <nicklally> Jay: I'm not so sure I like the colored boxes, 
but I could be convinced.
[22:41] <nicklally> [7:41pm] Jay: I do like the separation the boxes 
creates though -- again, simplicity.
[22:41] <nicklally> [7:41pm] nicklally: oh, and i think many subpages 
could be two colums (see my knowledge section). individual articles 
and stuff...
[22:41] <nicklally> [7:42pm] nicklally: yeah, well we can do all 
kinds of different color/no color mockups once we start designing
[22:41] <nicklally> [7:42pm] nicklally: and individual countries will 
be able to easily change these aspects with a couple lines of css
[22:41] <nicklally> [7:42pm] Jay: I see the two columns on the 
subpages.  I like that too.
01[22:42] <Jay> One thing I added to my wireframes, but I could take 
off for the sake of simplicity, is a nice big search box for each of 
the pages.  I like knowing how to search a page, and for us, giving 
people the ability to search the info is key.
[22:42] <nicklally> ok, so what's our next step/tasks for this week?
01[22:42] <Jay> So, that's something to think about, not something 
we have to hash out here.
01[22:42] <Jay> Next steps.
[22:42] <nicklally> well, generally, we need to refine these wireframes
[22:43] <michaelv> ok caught up
[22:43] <nicklally> and michael, you're going to put together a list 
of things we agree on?
01[22:43] <Jay> I think, if the rest of you are game, we could keep 
talking about nick's wireframes for the next couple days, going top 
to bottom, discussing things we agree upon and suggestions we have.
01[22:43] <Jay> via e-mail;
[22:43] <nicklally> and maybe questions that remain open?
[22:43] <michaelv> We need to refine the top block below the menu 
with sub menu, then figure out the three column content
[22:43] <michaelv> yes, but I need the log sent to me
[22:43] <nicklally> ok, that sounds good.
[22:44] <nicklally> jay, do you want to email the log again?
01[22:44] <Jay> There may not be too many points we disagree 
upon.  Next may be a talk about categories and if we want to have 
them at the top right (below the "publish" botton) and, if not there, where?
01[22:44] <Jay> I can e-mail the log.
[22:44] <nicklally> yeah, i think we could all come up with proposals 
for the main menu links and their submenu links
[22:45] <michaelv> I think nicks wireframes with the yahoo feature 
thumbs would simplify discussion if we agree, otherwise they are 
mostly the same
[22:45] <nicklally> we do have some outstanding questions, i believe
[22:45] <nicklally> feature thumbs? lemme look at yahoo
[22:45] <michaelv> but the way I have them on my wireframes mockup
[22:45] <michaelv> when you click on the little thumbs on yahoo, they 
move to center
[22:46] <michaelv> or default
[22:46] <nicklally> the thumbs on the right top of their page? 
weather, news and such?
[22:46] <michaelv> which is more in line with how you did the column too
[22:46] <michaelv> yeah, the news block right of the left menu
[22:47] <michaelv> the idea, but in the way I put it, which is along 
how you set up the top block too
[22:47] <michaelv> simplifies the other features, keeps them up top, 
and encourages people to read more
[22:48] <michaelv> I just think it is smart formatting
[22:48] <nicklally> oh, the little images that turn that middle top 
block into the article that corresponds to the image??
[22:48] <michaelv> yeah
[22:48] <michaelv> the same idea
[22:48] <nicklally> yeah, that's cool.
[22:48] <michaelv> but within out context
[22:48] <michaelv> that was what I meant by the little thumbs next to 
the large feature image
[22:48] <nicklally> without context?
[22:48] <nicklally> oh, i see.
[22:48] <nicklally> i'll have to think about that one.
[22:48] <michaelv> to our wireframes idea
[22:48] <nicklally> gotcha
[22:49] <michaelv> ideas
01[22:49] <Jay> So, we do have some outstanding questions, but we 
certainly agree on a lot of things.
[22:49] <nicklally> ok, can we continue via email. i think we all 
have a lot to think about! i want to sit down and go through some of 
these ideas, the strategies that we talked about, and how our 
wireframes fit into that. what do others think?
[22:49] <michaelv> see how that brings up the "other features" box up 
top, and we can get other content in the three columns below, such as 
networking, calendars, needs/wants, groups
03[22:50] * Retrieving #alternatives modes...
[22:50] <nicklally> Yeah.
[22:50] <michaelv> I agree, can you revise your wireframes with the 
ideas from mine and Jay's and this conversation?
[22:50] <nicklally> i'll try!!
[22:51] <michaelv> and I will summarize all of this once I get the 
log (tomorrow, it is getting late and I get up early
01[22:51] <Jay> Well, maybe just revise the top.  I think we have a 
few things to discuss on the bottom, below the big feature and the 
publish/join butotns.
[22:51] <nicklally> if you send me our points of agreement and our 
question marks i'll do my best
[22:51] <nicklally> yeah, i can also put together several versions 
that attempt to incorporate differing ideas
[22:51] <michaelv> ok, then I will definitely go through the log 
tomorrow and put a summary together
[22:51] <nicklally> i think it can help to have a visual aide for 
these decisions.
01[22:51] <Jay> Sounds really wonderful!
[22:52] <michaelv> more visual than text?
[22:52] <nicklally> ok, i'm going to run. thanks everyone for meeting 
and being so thoughtful about all these really difficult questions!
01[22:52] <Jay> I also think having a reference to websites that use 
the same trick is good too.
[22:52] <michaelv> great meetup, can't wait till the next
01[22:52] <Jay> Yeah nick, thanks to you and Michael too!  This was 
really good.
[22:52] <nicklally> oh, i meant having wireframe references to go 
along with our discussion
[22:53] <nicklally> great, we'll talk this week via email! thanks 
guys, i'm outta here!
01[22:53] <Jay> Thanks!!
[22:53] <michaelv> yep, take care you two and davo too
01[22:53] <Jay> I'll grab the log and post it to the e-mail 
list.  G'night everyone.
[22:53] <michaelv> night