[Imc-be] re: Moderating belgian issues...

Tue Mar 29 22:39:42 PST 2005

hi all,

once more, han is manipulating words:

http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-communication/2005-March/0329-rl.html

I know I gave him this chance so a quick answer from me:

"After the mails send by Anna & Clara some people from the
belgium.indymedia.org collective refrained from posting to the
communication, their opinion can found on the imc-be-communication list:
bruno:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be-communication/2005-March/0326-qt.html
DrKeuk:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be-communication/2005-March/0327-pv.html"

there are also the mails of han after this proposal, so does not make much sence what he writes above. He also did not mention:

http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be/2005-March/0328-aa.html

in which is mentioned that seven months ago there was already a proposal from the local sites to sit together but nobody of imc.be was interested.

"Somebody indeed proposed to stop using international lists to try to
solve this issue:
>/ - Belgian collectives refrain from using the global lists to fight out
/>/ their conflicts
/>/ - We give admin rights to an impartial mediator on the
/>/ imc-be-communications list and use this list for discussions between
/>/ Belgian imc collectives."

/For what I know, nobody objects that international lists are used to solve this conflict but that people on the 
international lists have enough of the personal conflicts been fight out on this lists.

"Personally I think the list needs no moderation, I mean annything on the
belgium issue should be able to be told on that list.  But if somebody
wants to moderate this list, feel welcome,it would be a good start for a
mediator to gain confidence from all people involved."

Everybody can see on the archives of the imc.be lists who blocks proposals and searches for conflict.

"I have a problem with the whole liason question in this issue.  If
somebody from the belgium.indymedia.org collective wants to speak in the
name of the whole collective this can only be done after an assembly."

People can also communicate by lists, saying there is need for an assembly is just showing to be willing to slow everything. Why there are otherwords the lists?

"It also gives the impression that is personal thing (han, Christopg
versus turlututu, Guido,...)"

This is not correct, it's not only the usual suspects.

" I reall feel there is need for a place
were people can just exprtess their peronal feeling on this issue as
some people started doing in the imc-be-communication list."

I defended for a long time han en co to other people, saying that they were not linked to the pvda(stalinist party in Belgium), but with the elections of 2003 my eyes openend and 
I can not sit down with somebody who abused my trust, it's also the reason why sometimes I react emotional but than it's in my name and not as liason for imc.ovl.

"It must be said though that a lot of people from the belgium collective
find it rather intimidating to speak out on this issue on open mailing
lists.
There are some open cals for agression on some local sites and in mails:
"to beat out the shit of some people of imc.be"  (this was in respons to
a proposal for a meeting.)
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be-communication/2005-March/0327-rp.html" <http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be-communication/2005-March/0327-rp.html>

As sad before, this is not a mail from the ovl-collective but a personal, emotional email of me. But I could not beat any of the people of imc.be because 
I would have to pay for them than and I rather fall death than to have to paye one pleuro for people of imc.be

"Liege: next time you insult Christophe, you should invite the other
collectives to join you! :-P" (This is about a agression from some people 
of the liege collective against Christophe during a protest at the US embassy)
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be-communication/2005-March/0327-ng.html

http://ovl.indymedia.org/news/2005/03/4970.php  Calls to fysically
attack people from the belgium collective doing interviews and/or
outreach during the big demo on 19.03.2005.
One girl doing outreach on 19.03 was verbally intimidated in such a way
that she does not want/dare to come forward on a open list and does not
dare to go out doing media-activism in her region on her own."

Maybe this is the girl that put WHILE I was trying to take a picture on the demo of the 19 march that withouit asking put a sticker of imc.be in my pocket, 
I looked at what was put in my pocket and after I swa it was a sticker of imc.be I looked at the girl with a not so happy face and said: "notimc.be but pvda.be"
few moments later I saw her standing talking with Han. 

Maybe on this list there will be other things said of what happenend but nothing more than that happenend, I continued to take pictures. 
Short after what happenend I told this to somebody.

"I ame not sure that resumé given by Andrés is 100% waterproof" as
sometimes the accusations turn into the complete opposite,.. The belgium
collective already responded several times to the those accusations.
Here we go once more.

>/ 1. is run by members of a "stalinist" political party (receiving 'orders
/>/ from above', having a specific party-political agenda, seeking power and
/>/ behaving in an authoritarian, dictatorial manner, etc.);
/
This is only part of the accusation.  Sometimes we are also called
Maoists or Islamists or like Guido did :"a stalinist/maoist indymedia"
On the ovl website the belgium.collectives is now called : reformist and
in these list it has also been called state owned.
It has become impossible to respond to the accusations as the most
faboulous theories go around and are taken for granted by some people.
We feel that the only possible respons to this is the website
(belgium.indymedia.org) and the way we function.
Sometimes the critiques are/were in fact about the lac of authority
and / or leadership.  
http://archives.lists.indymedia.org/imc-belgium-edito/2002-January/006154.html
http://archives.lists.indymedia.org/imc-belgium-edito/2002-January/006158.html

I feel that real issue under these accustations is rather the different
options we want to take in buidling indymedia.org.
It is far more easy to formulate accusations : Stalinis, Maoist,
reformist,.... than to have to discuss content.
I thinbk there is start now to do this.
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be-communication/2005-March/0329-jr.html" <http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be-communication/2005-March/0329-jr.html>

">/ 2. in the left-column, list of "regional" sites, links to subsites of
/>/ .be but not to the other regional imcs;
/
We have about the same policy as liege and antwerp.indymedia on this
issue:  They do not link to belgium.indymedia.org in their local
section, they only link to belgium.indy in their cities list.
We always said that we have people within the belgium collective from
different regions."

Han forgets that imc-ovl and imc-wvl link to belgium, not only in the citieslist. Also han does not answer on the question why
not all nine provinces are linked but only the provinces with a local site. he forgets to mentione that a link to an article in which the birth
of imc-liege was announced was changed so when people clicked on the link they got an error page. It also did take a really long time before imc-antwerpen, ovl and liege were mentioned in the citieslist
on imc.be while on other sites they appeared. This can be checked with archives.org, I will work on this, archives.org makes copies of pages when they are online and cannnot be changed like in googlecache, what's there, stays there.

he also has forgotten this, if he says noone is blocking local imc's:
http://archives.lists.indymedia.org/imc-process/2004-March/005581.html

>"/ 3. suppresses alternative (more liberal, more anarchist?) points of view
/>/ and criticism of .be when they attempt to publish on the site;
/
Maybe people can point to some artickles that were hidden."

this is difficult, as articles get emptyed and changed:

http://ovl.indymedia.org/news/2004/12/4046.php

that's my reaction on this mail.

I send alo a reaction to the communicationslist ansewring this mail:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-communication/2005-March/0327-78.html

My reaction is here:

Subject:
Re: Moderating belgian issues...
From:
"guido at stopimperialism.be" <guido at stopimperialism.be>
Date:
Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:43:18 +0200

To:
andrés <apb at swissmail.org>
CC:
"(((communication)))" <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>

andrés wrote:

> Hmm. One guido, signing as representing "the ovl-collective", posted a
> communication (not yet in the archives) at 03:43 (GMT +1), and then
> unsubscribed 12 minutes later:

indeed.
The mail I send signed with "ovl-collective" is from the collective, I 
unsubscribed because I think other persons can be better than me for 
being liaison,

greetings, Guido

greetings, Guido

>/ 4. when challenged, 'manipulates' or is 'economical with' the truth.
/
Yep, but how can one respond to something like that.  The best way to
respond to this is the website azs it is the best expression of the work
done by the belgium collective as a collective.

>/ As far as one can make out, membes of the .be collective choose to, it
/>/ seems quite cooly, calmly, defend their position without in their turn
/>/ accusing or seeking to limit or restrict other collectives in any way.
/
I ame not sure if this 100% waterproof neither, as sometimes people get
carried away.
On thing is for sure and that is that we never wanted or will
limit/restrict other collectives in any way.  We might have a different
opinion, but who are we to judge.
We could have blocked the local IMC's from their start, something we
never did, even if some of us felt that the start of the local IMC's
would lead to the actual situation. 

In solidarity

                               han

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