[imc-cms] [Imc-alternatives] python frameworks + wsgi beat cakephp + ice

Mon Dec 3 03:08:57 PST 2007

On 27/11/2007, ryan <ryan at linefeed.org> wrote:
>
> Em Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 08:33:06AM +0000, Josef Davies-Coates escreveu:
> >    Considering you want to "do all kinds of things (probably in
> Python)",
> >    why CakePHP and not Python frameworks like TurboGears, or Pylons?
>
> This probably isn't the place to have this discussions so I've cc'ed
> the cms list.

I thought I'd sent it to imc-cms anyway, but perhaps it got caught up in
moderation or something.

To answer the question "why PHP, and not Python?" -- a
> question I hear everytime I sit down to architect a new project, the
> answers I have are:
> 1- PHP is built for web development. Everything about it is for web
> development. And it has been that way for over 10 years now.

Yes, I have so far come across one other person who uses and really likes
python but prefers PHP for web dev.

2- PHP has lower barriers to access. It's easier for new programmers
> to learn.

I think this is also true of Python. Indeed, python was originally created
to teach people how to programme afaik.

3- PHP has a larger labor pool. It's easier to *find* new programmers
> for your project.

That is certainly true.

I'm sure how true it is if you actually want a *good* programmer though.

4- When used properly, PHP is the most sophisticated front-end
> available. Python can achieve this with a confusing mix of various
> add-ons and template systems (a new one seems to be in vogue every few
> months, Genshi is right now).

Interesting.

To be honest, you undoubtedly have more coding experience than me  - I don't
even code!

But I do know quite a few people who shared you viewpoint and were
previously heavily pro-PHP - until, that is, they actually started
developing using python and have found it to be much more productive.

I've read a bit about the personnel changes with TurboGears and TG2
> sounds like it could be cool, when it comes out. But I need something
> today :)

Fair enough.

>    If you want light-weight reusable middleware that allows you to truly
> >    distribute your servers and website hosting then the Python Web
> Server
> >    Gateway Interface (WSGI) is where its at.
>
> I will check this out... I've been hoping there exists a nice, free
> Python gateway thing that will make my dreams come true. Maybe this is
> it.

Yeah, certainly worth checking out. Be interested to hear your thought on it
too.

>    of other stuff)....it seems clear that Python frameworks (z3, tg2,
> >    etc.) + WSGI have the upper hand if a distributed cutting edge system
> >    with maximum code reuse is what is desired.
> >    Am I missing something?
>
> Yeah, I mean, we dont want to be cutting edge for the sake of cutting
> edge. We want a distributed international system that also
> distributes the labor of running the actual servers and is also
> impervious to the loss of any given node in the network. To that
> extent, pragmatism is what led me down to the road to the system I'm
> proposing. AND we want it fast, and we want it to be as accessible to
> as many people as possible.

Whilst I understand your desire to want everything fast, I personally don't
believe rushing to get something is ever a good long-term strategy. IMHO its
like sprinting at the start of a marathon.

>    I can hear people saying "but PHP is so popular and so many cheap
> >    hosting companies support it as standard"...
> >    Fox News is popular. WalMart is cheap. Are these really the qualities
> >    that matter?
>
> These qualities are indicative of what *is* important

Whilst I understand that viewpoint, I personally do agree. But I'm not the
one offering to do the work, so arguably my viewpoint doesn't matter to much
:P

-- all the
> reasons I listed out above (accessibility, lots of people are already
> php programmers, etc). PHP is the People's Language and it'll be hard
> to convince me that on the web server tier, there is something that
> makes more sense to use.

Like I said above, I've known lots of PHP coders who thought that in the
past. In the end, the seem to all end up being python lovers too. One day
you'll see the light! ;)

That said, Josef, I invite you over to imc-cms and join in

I've been on this list for yonks, thanks :)

-- our
> architecture discussion is FAR from over and, in some ways, hasn't
> even begun :) Because we haven't decided on a CMS route yet.

Cheers, I'll keep adding my 2p from time to time but have pretty much
decided to back the long-term plans of my colleagues working with python web
frameworks.

I'd love to see imc-cms head in this direction too, but I will fully support
whatever the teams looking at the short list come up with, since you/ they
are the people who are actually going to do the work!

Good luck!

Josef.

-ryan
>
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-- 
Josef Davies-Coates
07974 88 88 95
http://uniteddiversity.com
Together We Have Everything
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