[imc-cms] Open Questions: Templates and Languages

[Occam]

Hi,

with a good amount of free time in the next couple of months, i am  
looking forward to continue to work on the CMS project. Here are some  
"devils-in-the-details" that are lurking around :)

Since the general de-central structure and idea of malandro should be  
pretty much clear, there are many open question of the actual  
implementation.

The current back-end ice server proof-of-concept code is written in  
python and we know that PHP as a front-end language would be possible  
- PHP is able to use the ICE network.

*Task*

However, we have two features we need implement.

#1 The dynamic output of a html site
#2 The static html producer

Both of these need a template language and it would be nice if they  
could share some templates, or at least be in the same language.

Also, the producer needs to be able to run independently as a ice  
server (subscriber), so writing the producer in PHP is not possible  
(this is a ICE/PHP limitation).

*Templates*

So we have the problem of finding a template language, that works  
with Python and PHP. From the research i did there are #3.

#1 DOM/XML/XSLT - yes, slow as hell and a pain in the ass to write

#2 ZOPE ZPT TAL - There is a good PHP implementation of TAL, and  
three incomplete and outdated implementations for python. The only  
complete current python implementation is in ZOPE itself, and i could  
not find informations of how to use these without all the ZOPE  
overhead. Maybe someone here knows?!

#3 Clearsilver - is a cross language template system with bindings  
for python. The binding for PHP exists as experimental PHP module  
from 2004.

*Front-end Language*

Another option would be to write the dynamic front-end part of  
malandro with python or ruby, which makes it possible to use modern  
frameworks like CherryPy, Django or Rails.

Drawbacks are the much more complicated deployment and the smaller  
developer communities (compared to PHP). For example, CherryPy as  
standalone Web-Server does not support Virtual Hosts, only a  
deployment via Apache mod_python would make this possible. This way,  
mutil-site setups are getting way more complicated.

The main argument for PHP is the bigger development community and the  
easy deployment. However, by using ICE we are making some limitations  
already.

a) The ICE bindings for PHP are done as a binary PHP module. In  
shared hosting environments it will not be possible to add this module.

b) ICE would not be optional. Since every access to the DB would be  
done via ICE, you could not make a single-server standalone  
installation of the CMS, that does not require ICE. For this setup  
scenario, you would have allot of useless overhead.

Both points make the CMS less attractive to people who are searching  
for a "Blog Software". We would lose the majority of a possible  
community that supports the CMS.

With Python/Ruby alone it would be possible to write a CMS that  
scales from a single server setup to the multi-server setup we have  
in mind for Indymedia sites. However, we have the drawback of the  
more complicated deployment and limitations in the server environment.

*More options*

Do not use ICE but things like XML-RPC SOAP, JSON, Object  
Serialization - then everything could be written in PHP, Python or Ruby.

With Hyperactive and Samizdat we have two Ruby based CMS's that could  
be extended to use ICE. Writing the ICE back-end server in Ruby is  
possible.

All Frameworks in question here PHP Cake, CherryPy, Django, Rails etc  
have existing support communities of the same size and a larger  
variation of different extensions, template languages, modules for  
input checks etc pp. I don't think it will make a big difference to  
chose a, b or c.

So, abandon all hope, ye who joins this discussion :)

occam