[Imc-communication] imc-belgium's answer to imc-liege's disaffiliation request

christophe callewaert christophe at indymedia.be
Mon Apr 25 01:59:12 PDT 2005


Hey all,

Last week Lotus wrote that he heard that imc-belgium is "being used as a
propaganda arm for a political party". I asked for some proof but he
didn't answer. I looked it up in the document of imc-liège
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/BelgiumSituationEn

I see that Turlututu from imc-liège found three exemples of this
so-called propaganda in the last two years (see note 4):

http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/06/85976.php
This article is an overview of twelve interviews with 'personalities'
about the giant leap ahead of the fascist party Vlaams Blok (24% of the
votes in june 2004) posted five days after the elections. Among the
interviewees you can find people from universities, the head of the
National Office of Ant-discrimination and the ex-president of the
national public television VRT. How on earth can this be considered as
propaganda? Could it be that Turlututu was mislead by the
languageproblem (he doesn't speak Dutch)?

http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/05/85245.php 
http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/06/85712.php
The two other articles were part of our editorial policy during the
electoral period. I.e. to avoid tons of electoral propaganda in the
newswire and unstoppable flamewars between the several leftwing parties
running for elections (a common problem on all imc's I guess) we decided
to interview all parties who call themselves part of the
antoglobalization movement and from then on to hide every other
contribution from parties (press releases, propaganda, etc). 
Look at article 85712 and found out that it is not only the maoists of
the PTB figuring there but also 6 other small leftwing parties. We even
made interviews of three big parties (social democrats, green party and
even christian democrats) calling themselves leftist:
http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/05/85339.php
http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/05/85073.php
http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/05/84904.php

Could anyone explain where the propaganda is to be found?
I am not going to say that this was an ideal solution, but it was a
compromise between hiding everything about the elections (what some
imc's do) and a complete 'anything goes'. Maybe people from other imc's
can give some examples of other good practices.

But I find it disturbing that some people can just say anything they
want without verifying the facts or asking for some explanation. 

In solidarity,

christophe 



Op zo, 24-04-2005 te 13:07 +0200, schreef Phil:
> l a écrit :
> 
> >Surely this is an issue where people on the ground, close by, who can
> >talk to people in and around belgium need to decide. But, if imc liege
> >and other local imc's are asking for them to be disaffiliated, what
> >better proof can we ask for? It seems like the local imc's have
> >discussed it and are telling us that imc belgium is a problem.
> >
> >When I was in france, in toulouse, the imc toulouse volunteers all told
> >me that imc belgium was basically being used as a propaganda arm for a
> >political party. They know a lot better than I about the situation.
> >
> >  
> >
> Hey Lotus, i am sorry but there has been no debate among the toulouse's 
> collective about this subject.
> So your message may only reflect personnal feelings of some members, and 
> in no-way the view of "all imc-toulouse volunteers" ; for example : you 
> and i never met !
> 
> Lets rather focus on the large amount of elements pushing four 
> integrated local imcs to support belgium dissafiliation.
> Coz i don't think it would be a good thing to give any importance to the 
> advice of a collective still out of the network ; foremost when it is 
> not even a collectivly consensused position.
> 
> thank you
> 
> Phil
>  
> 
> > It seems to me like we have to take some direction from the local imc's
> >on the ground and act on their findings and decisions. It seems also
> >like the imc's who are far away or know nothing about the situation
> >should stand aside in the decision making process.
> >
> >Personally, having met folks in toulouse who I trust a lot and who have
> >expressed to me the problems with imc belgium, I'm in support of other
> >lcoal imc's who agree with them and want imc belgium disaffiliated. If
> >we don't have a process for disaffiliating imc's who aren't following
> >the PoU at all, then we're in a dangerous position where the imc network
> >is just going to become meaningless.
> >
> >
> >Tony wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Yes i know - but how can people on a global level determine who is
> >>telling the truth? I know some people in imc-belgium/brussels are in
> >>political parties (which is fine if they are acting as an individual
> >>into media) - what i don't know is whether they are abusing their
> >>numbers possition etc. My mail does not condoone such action in fact i
> >>would be as angry as the other local belgium imc's if that is true,
> >>and would feel let down by those in brussels that i have worked with
> >>and trust (from my inevitable distance).
> >>
> >>What I think Deva and i are saying is how can we determine this from
> >>remote places without understanding the politics of the area - in the
> >>end i would have to take one persons view point and trust they are
> >>right and in this situation i can't - so i would prefer if local
> >>belgium/dutch/french/german and UK if they can get to some face to
> >>face meetings try and sort it out closer to home...
> >>
> >>It is not that i am avoiding this situation but handing out judgments
> >>from a global network is not a healthy way unless as the very last
> >>resort, and i dont think we have got there yet.
> >>
> >>cheers tony
> >>
> >>At 23:15 +0200 17/04/05, Phil wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>Hello Christophe,  Deva,  Tony,
> >>>
> >>>I do not feel like the problem posed by belgium.indymedia.org might
> >>>be considered as a local issue.
> >>>It is as matter of fact that membres of a local political party (no
> >>>matter about its particular position) has gained control of a
> >>>portal.  Should we consider this neutral, should we accept the
> >>>principle of negociating with the people who did that ?
> >>>These are the only questions.
> >>>and they matter for all collectives among the indy network.  they
> >>>matter a lot.
> >>>
> >>>So this is also a personal point of view. and even when some may
> >>>qualify it insane (...) i surelly wait to see if this network chooses
> >>>to face this situation and react properly to it ; as it will surely
> >>>matter to know what kind of an affair we are involved in.
> >>>
> >>>thank you
> >>>best regards
> >>>      
> >>>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> >IMC-communication at lists.indymedia.org
> >http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-communication
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
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