[Imc-communication] Belgium: proposal

deva drdartist at riseup.net
Tue May 3 08:20:43 PDT 2005 

Belgium says it is not financed by government funds and is not run by a 
single political party.

You say it is a good project, but then say they are liars in this 
fundamental way. I doubt people who would lie like this can be making a 
good project. Are they just clever manipulators who write thoughtful 
emails here, but who are just lying to everybody?

So far, at least in English, no clear evidence is available that shows 
they are lying and you are telling the truth. Maybe they are telling 
the truth and you are lying. And maybe there are many shades of grey 
and nobody is lying.

What is the truth?

Accusations without clear evidence is not enough to make me agree with 
you. Must be many others who feel the same. Maybe that is why there are 
already a few IMCs who block the proposal.

Is there evidence to support the accusations or not?

regards
deva


On May 1, 2005, at 1:56 AM, turlututu wrote:

> Hey Deva, all.
>
> The point is that Imc Belgium is financed by the government funds and 
> is completely depend from a political party.
>
> This has nothing to do with personal conception about indymedia but 
> rather about some methods which are clearly not indymedia... The fact 
> that Imc Belgium doesn't respect at all the POU is a clear example 
> that there's a real problem...
>
> Of course Imc Belgium can do a great job, but this is job is made with 
> money from the state and with the infrastructure of a political party. 
> So the question is: do we want an alternative/independant media or not 
> ?
>
> I totally agree with Pseudopunk on that, the project of Imc Belgium is 
> a valuable project, but it has nothing to do with indymedia...
>
> Cu.
>
> deva a écrit :
>
>> You may feel sure that it isn't indymedia, but some clear evidence 
>> which convinces others is not available.
>>
>> The behind question is "What is Indymedia?"
>>
>> I think there is not much agreement on that really.
>>
>> POU #5 which states that imc's are not for profit
>>
>> I have always taken that to mean, for the past 4 years of my 
>> involvement, that nobody gets paid. Every indymedia contributor who I 
>> have known over those 4 years also interpreted it that way.
>>
>> Then I find out that some people get paid and that some people want 
>> to see paid indymedia positions as careers. That is very very far 
>> away from what I envision, and want to be involved with. So where do 
>> we go from there?
>>
>> We can all fight to make indymedia fit our own personal ideas. That 
>> way seems to me to lead to much wasted energy, generate much conflict 
>> and bad will and distract from the basic point of making media. I 
>> would say it may not be possible to control indymedia. Or if it is 
>> done, that the cure is worse than the disease.
>>
>> Many people have different ideas about indymedia. More and more my 
>> own idea is that indymedia should just be an idea, a tactic, and we 
>> should strive to let that idea go where it will.
>>
>> If Belgium is doing good work, then I see no reason to work against 
>> that just for a word. That good work is more important than the 
>> definition of the word indymedia, which we will never agree on 
>> anyway.
>>
>> Many people have killed each other because they define a word 
>> differently. God is this, NO! God is that! And a war and thousands of 
>> deaths and great suffering happens. This does not seem much 
>> different, but smaller, and we fight over the idea, "What is 
>> Indymedia" with the effort to kill belgium indymedia.
>>
>> This whole situation has made me think about these matters. Life is 
>> complex, and it is often not easy to find the fruitful path and 
>> humans seem to easily move into destructive ways.
>>
>> regards,
>> deva
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2005, at 9:44 AM, Pseudo Punk wrote:
>>
>>> christophe callewaert <christophe at indymedia.be> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bart,
>>>>
>>>> I think your answer proofs what we've already been writing. The
>>>> collectives will have to accept each other as valid imc's. And we 
>>>> will
>>>> both have to stop shouting: "no, we are the one and only valid 
>>>> imc". I
>>>> don't really see a solution if this isn't one of the first steps in 
>>>> a
>>>> mediation process (however tough that will be).
>>>
>>>
>>> let's be clear.
>>> i personally don't want mediation since it's totally senseless.
>>> i don't say you project isn't valuable (i really think it is), but 
>>> it isn't indymedia.
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> Bart
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you're right, imc-belgium didn't participate in the syndication
>>>> project, but we never opposed the project. So it is not correct to 
>>>> blame
>>>> us that this syndicationproject never was realised.
>>>>
>>>> christophe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Op za, 30-04-2005 te 14:03 +0200, schreef Pseudo Punk:
>>>>
>>>>> han at indymedia.be <han at indymedia.be> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Andres. We discussed your questions briefly by e-mail and this 
>>>>>> is as
>>>>>> far as we got.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Would imc-be be willing to participate in / contribute 
>>>>>>> regularly to /
>>>>>>> cooperate with a belgian syndication site, once established?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Liege & ovl dissafiliation proposal states clearly that want 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> exclude all people involved in belgium.indymedia.org.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> syndication site was proposed over a year ago. imc-belgium 
>>>>> actively argued
>>>>> against it.
>>>>>
>>>>> [NL] een syndication site was meer dan een jaar geleden reeds 
>>>>> voorgesteld
>>>>> en actief tegengewerkt door imc-belgium.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This why we write in our proposal: "We would like it if the local 
>>>>>> imc's respect
>>>>>> imc-belgium as an autonomous imc, just like we do in relation to 
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> haha. that was a joke isn't it ?
>>>>>
>>>>>> The first step to be made is the mutual acceptance of the 
>>>>>> existence of
>>>>>> each other."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet, we never excluded or oposed that artickles, features,... 
>>>>>> would be
>>>>>> part if this syndication site. Yet we always stated that for 
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> reasons for the time being we would not invest or take part in 
>>>>>> such a
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. You say that your collective wants to retain the
>>>>>>> belgium.indymedia.org url. What appropriate url would you 
>>>>>>> suggest for
>>>>>>> the syndication site?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the time being we want to retain the url belgium 
>>>>>> indymedia.org as
>>>>>> the belgium collective is a national collective. People from 
>>>>>> Brussel,
>>>>>> Liege, Gent (ovl), Antwerpen, Kortrijk (wvl), Tielt (wvl), 
>>>>>> Limburg, Leuven,
>>>>>> Aarschot, Charleroi,... participate in our meetings and produce
>>>>>> contributions on what happens in their region.
>>>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It should be clear that is not up to us to make a choice for the 
>>>>>> url of
>>>>>> the syndication project, only those who are involved can make 
>>>>>> such a
>>>>>> choise. So we can only "suggest".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> be.indymedia.org would propbaly the best suggestion, it is not in 
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> and clearly states that it is belgium.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> no, that would be a disaster. it would mean all decentralisation
>>>>> principles are set aside. (which is what you want anyway).
>>>>>
>>>>> [Nl] Dat zou een ramp zijn. het zou alle decentralisatie principes 
>>>>> langzij
>>>>> zetten (wat uiteindelijk hetgene is dat jullie willen).
>>>>>
>>>>>> But there are other options.
>>>>>> Belgie.indy, Belgique.indy are the dutch en french names for 
>>>>>> belgium.
>>>>>> Those collectives who are working on the syndication website 
>>>>>> eaven have
>>>>>> a concensus on the url www.mediacitivsm.be:
>>>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-be/2004-October/1014- 
>>>>>> k8.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that's a clear lie. that was only agreed because of the networks 
>>>>> refusal
>>>>> to decide on belgium.indymedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>> [nl] da's een leugen. dat werd enkel overeengekomen omdat het 
>>>>> netwerk
>>>>> weigerde te beslissen over de b.i.o. url.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Are there any circumstances in which your collective would 
>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>> letting the belgium.indymedia.org url go to the syndication site,
>>>>>>> adopting a different url for yourselves?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We feel it is impossible to answer such a question as we are we 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> talking pure speculation.
>>>>>> We feel the first stepts to be taken are:
>>>>>> 1. Mutual acceptance of the existence of each other
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> i personally accept you exist but i can't consider you as a valid 
>>>>> imc.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Start talking with each-other with or without (local)mediation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> i've allready lost way to much time talking with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>> Bart
>>>>> (personal point of view).
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. We also believe it's perfectly possible to work together in 
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> fields/occasions/actions etc. imc-be is pro collaboration on a
>>>>>> voluntary basis, with no strings attached.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If these steps can be taken and receive time to develop nothing 
>>>>>> is excluded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if in the mean time some people want to start working on this
>>>>>> syndications project we will not oppose this...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greets
>>>>>> han
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IMC-communication mailing list
>>>> IMC-communication at lists.indymedia.org
>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-communication
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> mtop looks like the revolution!
>>>
>>> http://wvl.indymedia.org | bart at indymedia.org
>>> http://thepits.be | bart at thepits.be
>>> http://pseudopunk.be
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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