[Imc-communication] [Imc] UCIMC: Concern about thedirection UCis going

eric eric at egyptian.com
Wed Nov 29 11:46:16 PST 2006


the $30,000 from the illinois arts council does not bother me to the extent 
it does you. better they get it than the moody bible institute.  also, they 
do more positive things with their funds than do others that would recieve 
them if they did not get them.

to say that "There are almost no militant/radical voices expressed there." 
is to belie my point. isn't it their ideaology of which you disapprove? 
they have quite a few articles that most would consider not of the 
"mainstream." perhaps not radical enough for some or more reactionary for 

aren't we really getting to the point of deciding acceptable ideology.we are 
deciding which ideology  is good and which is bad. do we have the capacity 
to make such a determination? i think not. is there but one method of 
achieving a specific goal?  you may believe this to be the case. i do not 
see it that way. there can be more than one way to attain a specific 
position. i realize that the ends don't justify the means, however there can 
be more than one perfectly reasonable way of doing something.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "deva" <drdartist at riseup.net>
To: <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Imc-communication] [Imc] UCIMC: Concern about thedirection 
UCis going

> hi eric,
> At some point, you would not longer feel comfortable with the
> direction of another collective. If some collective decided to pay
> their 'president' $200,000 per year, I think you would not be happy
> with that choice, and perhaps would not wish to be affiliated with
> that group. I give this exaggerated example to make the point that
> everyone, individual or group will have some place where they will
> draw a line and say this has gone too far from the spirit of where it
> started. The meaningful discussion is regarding those lines, not
> castigating people for their feelings and views.
> There have been some frank discussions among Portland folks. There
> has been discussion about what is the indymedia network, should
> affiliations be voluntary, and what effects such an action as taking
> UC off the Portland cities list would have on the network.
> Looking over the UC imc site, it is easy to see why it will attract
> $30,000 grants from the state agency. There are almost no militant/
> radical voices expressed there. Indymedia was born of the militant
> spirit of the Seattle WTO protests and which expresses itself even
> more fully in many other places in the world. Watch the video from
> Argentina "Eye of the Storm" for an example. UC takes money from the
> State, has ongoing paid positions for people who deal with money, and
> has little radical voice. It is becoming a mainstream, money based
> organization that moves farther and farther from the roots of
> worldwide indymedia and its message of radical social change.
> After Martin Luther King delivered his famous speech in 1967
> denouncing the war in Vietnam, mainstream Black leaders rebuked him
> for jeopardizing the financial support of liberal whites. "You might
> get yourself a foundation grant," King retorted, "but you won't get
> yourself into the Kingdom of Truth."
> regards,
> deva
> On Oct 24, 2006, at 2:08 PM, eric wrote:
>> it is interesting that other collectives feel a right to label an
>> independent collective that has made a choice for itself. whether
>> we agree
>> with their choice or not, it is not for our collective to decide to
>> somehow
>> brand them. does this mean we also need to label political ideology
>> as well?
>> are collectivists good while mutualists are not? is communism
>> acceptable but
>> not socialism? shouldn't we also make these determinations as well?
>> shouldn't there be a way to display these views on the cities list
>> as well?
>> eric
>> bmimc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <bmedia at riseup.net>
>> To: <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>
>> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 6:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Imc-communication] [Imc] UCIMC: Concern about the
>> direction
>> UCis going
>>> This eloquent statement on the dangers of bringing the money mindset
>>> into indymedia was posted early this month (see below). I am
>>> surprised
>>> to note that there has been no response at all. I would like to know
>>> whether there are others out there who would be interested in
>>> addressing this issue through either of the proposals that Deva made?
>>> Again, these were:
>>> 1. noting on the cities list those IMCs which copy the money model
>>> (my
>>> preference would be a $ symbol on those few sites that do this);
>>> 2. global choosing an option other than being fiscally sponsored
>>> by UC
>>> imc.
>>> Cat
>>> Quoting deva <drdartist at riseup.net>:
>>>> In thinking about the feelings and different values and ideas
>>>> expressed regarding money, paying people, and having a dues paying
>>>> membership, I am reminded of the environmental movement for forest
>>>> protection in North America.
>>>> Whether willingly, or in the legal system, timber representatives
>>>> sit
>>>> down with government officials, and environmentalists. Some
>>>> compromise effort is worked out to protect a percentage of the
>>>> forest
>>>> and cut a percentage of the forest. A few years later, the force of
>>>> greed is back, demanding another compromise. Those who do not
>>>> wish to
>>>> compromise are labeled radical extremists and the remaining wild
>>>> places keep shrinking. At some point, those who want to protect the
>>>> forest are again supposed to sit and compromise as they discuss the
>>>> fate of the tiny percentage that is left, yet its fate is already
>>>> decided because the force of greed itself is never addressed.
>>>> Money and power control the world. It is nearly everywhere and
>>>> defining nearly everything. For me, Indymedia is one tiny experiment
>>>> with another approach. Yet even here, money and its power and allure
>>>> have come in. Some say we have to embrace the diversity of the
>>>> network, but what is called diversity is really the encroaching
>>>> system that is already rooted into everything. The dominant system
>>>> destroys diversity. Having local indymedias that pay people, collect
>>>> dues from members and pursue grants from foundations is something
>>>> already being repeated countless times around the world. It is
>>>> neither diverse, nor new. Once you are paying people to do
>>>> bookkeeping, fundraising, and to be treasurer and membership
>>>> coordinator, all money related positions, you have become a money
>>>> based organization and more and more time goes into dealing with
>>>> money.
>>>> Here in the US, and perhaps elsewhere, the system has become
>>>> smarter.
>>>> Rather than just fight against visionary movements, creatives,
>>>> artists, etc, the system now pays those people/movements money
>>>> and so
>>>> works to seduce them and turn them over time. The carrot is more
>>>> effective than the stick and so more dangerous. Money and the
>>>> systems
>>>> it requires is the great divider of people and it has done its work
>>>> again.
>>>> The issue of money and how to deal with it is a point of deep
>>>> conflict in indymedia. We have as collective indymedia, a set of
>>>> principles of unity, yet we are clearly not united in our
>>>> principles.
>>>> Indymedia is a consensus based effort. Now there is enough
>>>> divergence
>>>> of view that it is not likely to have consensus on money issues.
>>>> Does
>>>> consensus mean that the status quo is perpetually preserved? Is a
>>>> consensus decision from the past a willing consensus? or at that
>>>> point an imposed consensus? For example, if 5 people agree to a
>>>> certain choice, then a year later 2 or 3 of those people no longer
>>>> see it as a good choice, are they stuck with it unless the other 2
>>>> change their mind as well?
>>>> Here in Portland there has been discussion of putting the dollar
>>>> sign, or dollar sign in a circle/slash (or the monetary symbol for
>>>> their currency) next to the local imc's on the Portland cities list.
>>>> The symbols would be linked to a page describing the issues and the
>>>> choices made by different imc's.
>>>> One suggestion I have for global is for global indymedia to choose
>>>> another option than being fiscally sponsored by UC. They have done
>>>> that job for some years and perhaps it is time for a change and a
>>>> new
>>>> approach. There is discussion in Portland for proposing this and I
>>>> wish to have some feedback if there is interest in such a change.
>>>> regards,
>>>> deva
>>>> version en castellano (spanish)
>>>> Pensando sobre las sensaciones y diferentes valores e ideas que se
>>>> expresan en cuanto al dinero, el pago de sueldos, y el pago de una
>>>> cuota por miembros, estoy recordando el movimiento ambiental por la
>>>> protección del bosque en Norteamérica.
>>>> De comun acuerdo, o bajo el sistema legal, los representantes
>>>> madereros se sientan con funcionarios del gobierno, y
>>>> ecologistas. Un
>>>> cierto esfuerzo de negociación se hace para  proteger un porcentaje
>>>> del bosque y talar otro porcentaje del bosque. Unos años más tarde,
>>>> la fuerte avaricia vuelve, exigiendo otro acuerdo. Aquellos que no
>>>> desean transar son llamados extremistas radicales y los lugares
>>>> silvestres restantes  siguen achicándose. En cierto punto, los que
>>>> desean proteger el bosque son otra vez llamados a sentarse y acordar
>>>> el destino del pequeño porcentaje que queda, aun cuando el
>>>> destino ya
>>>> estaba definido porque la fuerza de la avaricia en si mismo nunca se
>>>> discute.
>>>> El dinero y el poder controlan el mundo. Está casi por todas
>>>> partes y
>>>> definiendo casi todo. Para mí, Indymedia es un experimento diminuto
>>>> con otro acercamiento. Aún hasta aquí, el dinero y su poder y
>>>> encanto
>>>> han entrado. *Unos dicen que tenemos que abrazar la diversidad de la
>>>> red, pero lo que llaman la diversidad es realmente el sistema de
>>>> usurpación ue se arraiga ya en todo. El sistema dominante
>>>> destruye la
>>>> diversidad.* Teniendo indymedias locales que pagan a su gente, toma
>>>> aportes de los miembros y busca subvenciones de fundaciones es algo
>>>> ya siendo repetido incontables veces en el mundo entero. Esto ni es
>>>> diverso, ni nuevo. Una vez que tu estás pagando gente para hacer la
>>>> contabilidad, buscar fondos, y ser el tesorero y el coordinador de
>>>> socios, todas los cargos relacionados a el dinero, te has convertido
>>>> en una organización basada en el dinero y el tiempo entra cada
>>>> vez se
>>>> va más en temas sobre el dinero.
>>>> Aquí en EEUU, y quizás en otras partes, el sistema se ha hecho más
>>>> inteligente. Más que la simplemente luchar contra movimientos
>>>> visionarios, creativos, artistas, etc., el sistema ahora financia
>>>> aquel dinero de la gente (o movimientos) y trabaja tanto para
>>>> seducirlos y darlos vuelta con el tiempo. La zanahoria es más eficaz
>>>> que el palo y mucho más peligrosa. El dinero y los sistemas que esto
>>>> requiere son el gran divisor de la gente y esto ha hecho su trabajo
>>>> otra vez.
>>>> La cuestión del dinero y como tratar con ello es un punto de
>>>> conflicto profundo en Indymedia. Tenemos como  colectivo indymedia,
>>>> un sistema de principios de unidad, con todo nos no unen claramente
>>>> en nuestros principios.
>>>> Indymedia es un esfuerzo basado en el consenso. Ahora hay bastante
>>>> puntos de vista divergentes que  probablemente no tengamos acuerdo
>>>> general sobre cuestiones de dinero. ¿Significa el consenso que el
>>>> status quo  se mantiene permanentemente? ¿Es una decisión por
>>>> conseso
>>>> del pasado un acuerdo general dispuesto?  ¿o en ese punto un
>>>> consenso
>>>> impuesto?
>>>> Por ejemplo, si 5 personas acuerdan sobre un tema, luego un año
>>>> después 2 o 3 de esas personas ya no ven como una buena opción,
>>>> están
>>>> ellos atados a eso hasta que las otras 2 personas cambien su parecer
>>>> también?
>>>> Aquí en Portland ha habido discusión de poner el signo de dólar,
>>>> o el
>>>> signo de dólar en un ciruculo tachado (o el símbolo monetario
>>>> para su
>>>> dinero) al lado del IMC's local a la lista de ciudades. Los símbolos
>>>> serían vinculado a una página que describe las cuestiones y las
>>>> opciones hechas por cada CMI.
>>>> Una sugerencia que tengo para la red es para indymedia global para
>>>> escoger otra opción que ser patrocinado fiscalmente por el CMI
>>>> Urbana. Ellos han hecho por aquel trabajo durante algunos años y
>>>> quizás esto es el tiempo para un cambio y un nuevo acercamiento. Hay
>>>> discusión en Portland para proponer esto y deseo tener algunas
>>>> respuestas  si hay interés a tal cambio.
>>>> saludos,
>>>> deva
>>>> (thanks to Libertinus for the translation)
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> IMC-communication at lists.indymedia.org
>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-communication
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