[Imc-communication] thing that make me hate indymedia
dri
dri at indymedia.org
Fri Sep 1 19:50:52 PDT 2006
Hi,
(pt_br above)
> i also want to clarify something about the principles of unity. it
> is my understanding that there is nothing in the principles that say
> people cannot be paid, but that imcs cannot be for profit. this was
> very mindfully crafted at the time and i remember the process.
if an imc has money to pay staff (!) it is a profit money being used cause
lot's of imcs work hard to get travel expenses for imc meetings to be
funded.
if an imc is hiring people to raise money then it's has the profit as an
objective two times - firstly cause there is money available (profit!) to
pay staff and secondly cause people are being payed to raise more money!
for me that is clearly against the principles of unity.
(and i gave a suggestion on how to pay people to do boring jobs in my
previews e-mail on this subject).
peace,
dri
pt_br:
se um cmi tem grana pra pagar gente (!) é um dinheiro vindo de um lucro q
tá sendo usado pq um monte de cmi trabalha pácas pra pagar viajens pra
reuniões.
se um cmi tá contratando gente pra arrecadar mais grana então é um
objetivar por lucro duas vezes, primeiro porque tem grana sobrando pra
pagar gente pra trabalhar (lucro!), segundo porque as pessoas são pagas
pra arrecadar mais grana!
pra mim isso é claramente contra os principios de unidade.
(e dei sugestão de como driblar isso no meu primeiro e-mail sobre esse
assunto).
>
> given how volatile email can get, i would love to see this discussion
> be another topic for an irc meeting. where people can "talk" in an
> online space in real time.
>
> love
> sheri
>
> On Aug 31, 2006, at 7:00 PM, deva wrote:
>
>> I have heard all this sort of argument before. As I said in my
>> previous email, I believe it is almost exclusively in the US where
>> imc people seek to pay themselves. Is it a coincidence that the
>> most money and power hungry nation creates people who do not want
>> to do the volunteer work? How sorry for us!
>>
>> One thing I notice in your words
>>
>> 1. Demand adherence to the mission
>> 2. Tightly define job descriptions with clearly delineated
>> responsibilities and
>> privileges
>> 3. Enforce transparency
>> 4. Require accountability
>> 5. and above all, prevent self-serving accumulation of power
>>
>> Here is the sort of language you say is needed to counteract the
>> negative effect of money. All repressive terms. If this is what is
>> needed to deal with money, maybe is better not to go that way
>>
>> When the money comes in, the language of the heart recedes.
>>
>> I know UC-IMC has chosen its path, and nothing will change that
>> now, so really there is little point for discussing it. Various
>> corporate entities also have great rationalizations for all the
>> things they do. I agree with Libertinus and the words of beauty and
>> passion he wrote.
>>
>> deva
>> portland-imc
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 30, 2006, at 9:22 PM, Randall Cotton wrote:
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "deva" <drdartist at riseup.net>
>>> To: <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Imc-communication] thing that make me hate indymedia
>>>
>>>
>>> : I don't want to see every imc the same. Experimentation and
>>> diversity
>>> : is good as we all try to create a more balanced and sane human
>>> society.
>>> :
>>> : Seeing this however, does make me wonder. Why is it the work
>>> dealing
>>> : with money, which earns people money? We live in a society where
>>> : banks and bankers control everything and where money is above all
>>> : else. It does trouble me when I see the appearance of this same
>>> : pattern.
>>>
>>> I can see how it would be easy, perhaps even natural, to associate
>>> money with
>>> evil. It seems to me, though, that the evil of capitalism is not
>>> that it
>>> involves the use of money, but that it strongly tends to victimize
>>> some for the
>>> benefit others. In particular, the accumulation of one's own
>>> wealth is
>>> worshipped as the highest value, trumping any consideration of how
>>> such efforts
>>> might victimize others. And, of course, the worst manifestations
>>> of this are the
>>> goliath corporations, designed to be soulless juggernauts in
>>> pursuit of
>>> ever-greater profits by any means necessary, damn the welfare of
>>> anyone or
>>> anything else.
>>>
>>> But to me it isn't the exchange of money that should be shunned.
>>> Money is just a
>>> tool that can be used for good or bad purposes. It's possible to
>>> exchange money
>>> for work or goods without victimizing anyone. Indeed, I would
>>> maintain it's
>>> possible to do so with a resulting benefit for all parties and
>>> even the greater
>>> common good, if one is mindful about it.
>>>
>>> Does the UC-IMC also pay anyone for media work? Or is it
>>> : only the money people earning money? Of 5 jobs listed, nothing
>>> : relates to media.
>>>
>>> It seems to me that if the infrastructure is there to provide the
>>> convenient
>>> opportunity for folks in our community to create media, then they
>>> will be only
>>> too happy to take advantage of that opportunity. We need not pay
>>> them to do so.
>>> That's certainly been the pattern we've experienced with our
>>> newspaper and radio
>>> station. But to provide this service to the community, certain
>>> difficult (even
>>> tedious and demanding) tasks need to be performed on an ongoing
>>> basis and one
>>> might want to pay a small amount of money in exchange for that work.
>>>
>>> I think perhaps the real danger in creating paid positions at an
>>> IMC (or any
>>> organization, I guess) is the accumulation of power (and its
>>> nearly inevitable
>>> subsequent abuse) by individuals who hold those paid positions. In
>>> particular,
>>> there is a tendency for people to act in ways that preserve or
>>> enhance their
>>> ongoing payment even when it goes against the mission of the
>>> organization
>>> (perhaps even victimizing some in the process). It seems to me
>>> that to counter
>>> that, one must have a clearly stated mission along with well-
>>> crafted rules that:
>>>
>>> 1. Demand adherence to the mission
>>> 2. Tightly define job descriptions with clearly delineated
>>> responsibilities and
>>> privileges
>>> 3. Enforce transparency
>>> 4. Require accountability
>>> 5. and above all, prevent self-serving accumulation of power
>>>
>>> Otherwise, things can go downhill toward a situation where those
>>> who are being
>>> paid and are in control work to preserve and enhance that control
>>> and payment
>>> above other considerations including the original mission. This,
>>> it seems to me,
>>> is poison particularly for any organization purporting to be a
>>> community
>>> resource.
>>>
>>> But perhaps there are other ways of thinking about this (I'd be
>>> interested in
>>> hearing them).
>>>
>>> R
>>>
>>> : You ask what to do if nobody steps forward to volunteer. Do you
>>> just
>>> : let it fall apart? The thing is we make choices that define later
>>> : choices. It is the inevitable logic of capital that leads down a
>>> : certain road where each choice makes sense but the final
>>> destination
>>> : is not where one was aiming to be.
>>> :
>>> : UC-IMC has gone in its own direction, quite different from other
>>> : IMCs. I do not think any other IMC has a dues paying membership and
>>> : paid staff. That is very far from the radical vision that
>>> inspired me
>>> : to get involved with indymedia work. So I have no ideas to suggest.
>>> :
>>> : Regards,
>>> : deva
>>> : portland-imc
>>> :
>>> :
>>> : On Aug 30, 2006, at 2:57 PM, Randall Cotton wrote:
>>> :
>>> : > Yes, this does seem at odds with what one would expect the
>>> mission
>>> : > of an IMC,
>>> : > but I understand the UCIMC does operate as the only 501(c)3 non-
>>> : > profit IMC,
>>> : > providing tax-free funding for the benefit of other IMCs
>>> (which not
>>> : > only
>>> : > conserves our own funds, but it prevents funds going to the
>>> current
>>> : > administration's empire-building agenda). In addition, we own a
>>> : > hulking building
>>> : > (see http://www.ucimc.org/newswire/display_any/34385 ) that
>>> houses
>>> : > a radio
>>> : > station, a newspaper, a performance venue, and serves as an
>>> : > increasingly
>>> : > bustling hub for media and arts focused on social and economic
>>> : > justice. To keep
>>> : > all this going, it would seem to me that certain things
>>> absolutely
>>> : > have to get
>>> : > done. Keeping books and records, maintaining/renting the building
>>> : > and organizing
>>> : > fundraising/donations.
>>> : >
>>> : > What if no one steps forward to do these things out of the
>>> kindness
>>> : > of their
>>> : > heart? How does one address that? Do we just let it all fall
>>> apart?
>>> : >
>>> : > I contribute as a member to UCIMC, though I'm currently barely
>>> : > involved as a
>>> : > volunteer. I don't claim to know the answers and I'm open to be
>>> : > educated. What
>>> : > are your ideas for addressing this?
>>> : >
>>> : > R
>>> : >
>>> : > ----- Original Message -----
>>> : > From: "deva" <drdartist at riseup.net>
>>> : > To: <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>
>>> : > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:15 PM
>>> : > Subject: Re: [Imc-communication] thing that make me hate
>>> indymedia
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > : Interesting also that of the 5 paying jobs, not one of them has
>>> : > : anything to do with making media and 4 of them have to do with
>>> : > making
>>> : > : money
>>> : > :
>>> : > : deva
>>> : > :
>>> : > :
>>> : > :
>>> : > : On Aug 30, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Libertinus wrote:
>>> : > :
>>> : > : > one. found this kind of thing
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > http://www.ucimc.org/mod/info/display/jobs/index.php
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > Libertinus ______________________
>>> : > : > http://www.flickr.com/photos/libertinus/
>>> : > : > http://www.fotolog.net/libertino
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : > _______________________________________________
>>> : > : > IMC-communication mailing list
>>> : > : > IMC-communication at lists.indymedia.org
>>> : > : > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-communication
>>> : > :
>>> : > : _______________________________________________
>>> : > : IMC-communication mailing list
>>> : > : IMC-communication at lists.indymedia.org
>>> : > : http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-communication
>>> : >
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>>> :
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>>
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>
> Sheri
>
> "...and the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more
> painful than the risk it took to blossom." -- Anais Nin
>
>
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