[Imc-communication] answer1/2: [Imc-pl]Fwd: (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make yourself useless

[bmedia at riseup.net]

um... no offense, but i'm not sure that destructive sniping and  
dirty-laundry bearing is exactly productive here. it's not what i want  
in my inbox. don't get me wrong: if there is an honest disagreement  
worth exchanging passionate words over, i have no issue with that.  
there's nothing wrong with a passionate argument... when it is going  
somewhere. but... this just seems absurd. someone was asked to leave a  
collective, he left, the end. no more need be said. right?

Cat

Quoting listinbox <listinbox at gmx.net>:

> we are wery pleased that you respected our reguest.
> < it is their problem, that they feel pleased aboud it
> we are less pleased that you decided to couple your resignation with
> revenge.
> < try to separate revenge from following plans, aims, older traditions of
> what is meant by OPEN SOURCE. and what is meant by bottob-up.
> i uderstand that you feel disappointed that people from our and your own
> town IMC group stoppped to trust you
> < a group builds its own little redaction-insider-circle, it´s own castle.
> blocks itself insinde of it. cares more for inner quarrel, trouble making to
> each other then for constructive thinking. their problem, that they
> interprete this that way.
> send bunch of lies about
> < every so-called lie is a trial to how to understand their style of
> communication, cause every assuming, what might stand behind whitch sentence
> is basen on letters that reached us.
>
> rest of it
>
>
> at
>
> another day. work is waiting.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gosia" <rikefake at o2.pl>
> To: <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>
> Cc: <imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Imc-pl]Fwd: (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make
> yourself useless
>
> hi boud,
> we are wery pleased that you respected our reguest.
> we are less pleased that you decided to couple your resignation with
> revenge.
>
> i uderstand that you feel disappointed that people from our and your own
> town IMC group stoppped to trust you and didn't want to cooperate with you
> anymore. it is not however the reason good enough to feel resentful and send
> bunch of lies about IMC-PL collective. label is not a decent way to solve
> your personal problems.
>
> as your accusiations are quite serious and completely ungrounded, i would
> like to infom uninformed that:
>
> people from warsaw collective meet every week on fridays. these meetings are
> open for everyone. they are advertised on imc-pl site. as local activist
> collective and warsaw indymedia collective are basicly the same, quite busy
> people, we just decided not to meet in separate days but link meetings of
> these groups and devote some time of which for indymedia stuff (whenever
> there are things to discuss or new volunteers to introduce) and then for
> activist stuff. earlier, for a couple of years we used to meet for these
> purposes on separate days but people ceased to have time for that.
> we do have a few activists who in their towns have no gruop that could form
> a local IMC collective. they help us to maitain imc-pl site and participate
> in pur decision processess and we not feel that it would be fair to
> discriminate them and deprive them of the right to paricipate in IMC-PL on
> the grounds that they do not hold local meetings.
>
> as we are odrinary humans we also prefer to 'spend our time having fun with
> other physical, non-virtual people: dancing, talking, eating, drinking,
> hugging, making love (in the order you prefer; add other options to taste)'.
> it doesn't interfere hovever with our work to maintain imc-pl site, what
> cannot be said about boud and torun collective that doesn't participate in
> editorial or maintenance work al all.
> moreover, i have the feeling that we spent time with psychical indymedia
> people from warsaw and other cities a bit more often that boud and the
> remains of the 'torun collective'.
>
> we are an open group and do not have any hierarchy. the only person who ever
> tried to impose hierarchy in IMC-PL, force gis opinions and speak for others
> without their consent was boud. that's why he was asked to cease at least
> temporarily his participation in our activities. i can't see any reason to
> question our complence with the principles of unity or membership criteria.
> we do question sometimes torun accordance with these rules, but treat it as
> our internal affair and hope they will finally sort things out for
> themselves .
>
> we've been for many years actively involved in fight against any form of
> discrimination and we are members of several antidiscriminatory groups,
> therefore we find all this blah blah about sexism or discrimination in the
> collective  particulary appaling. the fact that we have in our collective
> members of several minority groups makes the appearance of such accusations
> quite ironic at that. we do have problems with 'colonionial mentality' boud
> presens toward local people treating them as uncapable of grasping the
> concepts of western thought and constantly needing his guidance. we are
> however able to deal with this problem ourselves.
>
> as boud has been deprived the right to act as a spokesperson and to
> represent anybody in anyway by people from his own group and nobody from our
> former activists have ever authorised him to speak for them and about their
> reasons to withdraw from IMC-PL, maybe it's high time for him to stop
> acting like a judge. doctor, cure yourself!
>
> sorry for bringing our internal problems to international lists. i just feel
> that people who are unfailry accuses should have the chance to defend
> themselves.
>
> greetings
> g.
>
> -------------
> From: boud <boud at riseup.net>
> Date: Jul 28, 2007 2:41 AM
> Subject: [Imc-pl] (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make yourself
> useless
> To: imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org, imc-communication at lists.indymedia.orgCc:
> imc-pl-torun at lists.indymedia.org
>
> hi imc-pl, imc-communication
>
> (pl na dolu)
>
> (fr ci-dessous)
>
> (en)
> hi all,
>
> i have the pleasure to announce that with respect to IMC PL, it seems
> to me that thanks to our collective efforts, a goal i heard a long
> time ago in indymedia has become reality: the difference between
> indymedia and a coordinatorist organisation is that in indymedia, you
> should do the best to "make yourself useless", since we would prefer
> to spend our time having fun with other physical, non-virtual people:
> dancing, talking, eating, drinking, hugging, making love (in the order
> you prefer; add other options to taste). Hierarchical structures and
> centralised, dependency structures force a group to require people to
> constantly, regularly invest their time. A non-hierarchical structure
> should, as a system, function well enough even if one or a few people
> are missing and not require them to constantly be active or carry out,
> e.g. "editorial shifts for hiding/shifting articles". So, as i am now
> useless to IMC PL :), i intend to stop my IMC PL activities.
>
> i will remain active in my city collective, IMC Torun, where we meet
> each other face-to-face regularly in public meetings and often by
> chance in the street.
>
> i'm sending a copy of this to imc-communication (*not* to
> imc-process), because although i'm sure that IMC PL will continue to
> function without me, IMHO it has deviated quite far from several of
> the Principles of Unity (see points 4, 6 and 10) and the Membership
> Criteria (points c. and f.), and since it is nearly five years since
> it was accepted into the network (October 2002), and two very active
> people left the collective (one became active in the unofficial
> "Indymedia PL II", a.k.a. cia.bzzz.net) because their anti-sexist,
> anti-discrimination interpretation of our editorial policy was
> unacceptable to some others, it is probably time for the collective to
> remove itself from the cities list and go through the new-imc
> organising process as a new collective. If the network is happy for
> the reorganised collective to exist as primarily a national(ist?),
> internet discussion group/website rather than a network of local,
> face-to-face, grassroots groups, then at least the reorganised IMC PL
> collective should make that as a proposal to the network, which can
> decide whether or not it accepts the reorganised collective.
>
>
> Anyway, the mir/kosmos group should have no problems supporting IMC PL
> technically - most of the IMC PL politburo speak english fluently.
>
> horizontalidad
> boud
>
>
>
> (pl)
> witam
>
> Mam przyjemność ogłosić, że wobec IMC PL, wydaje mi się, że dzięki
> naszym kolektywnym wysiłkom, cel, o którym dawno temu słyszałem w
> indymediach, stał się rzeczywistością: róźnica między indymediami a
> organizacją koordynatorystyczną jest taka, że w indymediach powinniśmy
> robić najlepiej tak, aby ,,uczynić siebie zbędnym", ponieważ
> wolelibyśmy spędzać nasz czas tańcząc, rozmawiając, jedząc, pijąc,
> całując, kochając się (w kolejności, której chcesz; dodaj inne opcje
> według smaku). Struktury hierarchiczne i zcentralizowane,
> uzależniające struktury zobowiązują osoby do ciągłego, regularnego,
> inwestowania czasu. Nie-hierarchiczna struktura powinna, jako system,
> funkcjonować wystarczająco dobrze nawet wtedy, gdy kilka osób brakuje
> i nie powinna wymagać, aby byli oni ciągle aktywni ani, żeby musieli
> np. robić ,,dyżury dla ukrywania/przesunięcia artykułów". Dlatego
> też, jako że teraz jestem zbędny dla IMC PL :), zamierzam wycofać się
> od mojej aktywności w IMC PL.
>
> Będę jeszcze aktywny w kolektywie miasta, IMC Torun, gdzie spotykamy
> się regularnie w publicznych spotkaniach i często przypadkowo na
> ulicach.
>
> Wysyłam kopię do imc-communication (*nie* do imc-process), ponieważ,
> chociaż jestem pewny, że IMC PL będzie funkcjonować beze mnie, moim
> skromnym zdaniem, odbiegło już ono od kilku spośród Pryncypiów Jedności
> (zob. punkty 4, 6 i 10) i Kryteriów Członkostwa (zob punkt c. i f.), i
> ponieważ minęło już pięć lat od czasu kiedy zostało zaakceptowane w sieci
> (paźd 2002r.), i dwie bardzo aktywne osoby wycofały się z kolektywu
> (jedna została aktywna w nie-oficjalnym "Indymedia PL II", tzn
> cia.bzzz.net) ponieważ ich anty-seksistowska i anty-dyskryminacyjna
> interpretacja naszej polityki redakcyjnej była nie-dopuszczalna dla
> niektórych innych osób, stąd chyba nadszedł czas aby kolektyw
> wycofał się z listy miast (cities list) i zreorganizował się przez
> procedury new-imc jako nowy kolektyw. Jeśli sieć indymedia będzie
> akceptować nowy kolektyw jako głównie narodow(istyczn?)ą, grupę
> dyskusyjną/witrynę www zamiast jako sieć lokalnych, twarzą w twarz,
> oddolnych grup, wtedy przynajmniej, zreorganizowany kolektyw IMC PL
> powinien to zrobić jako propozycja do sieci, która będzie mogła
> zdecydować czy akceptuje zreorganizowany kolektyw czy też nie.
>
>
> W każdym bądź razie, grupa mir/kosmos nie powinna mieć problemów z
> poparciem IMC PL z punktu widzenie technicznego - większość osób
> z politbiura IMC PL biegle mówi po angielsku.
>
> pozdr
> boud
>
>
>
> (fr)
> salut a tou-te-s
>
> j'ai le plaisir d'annoncer que dans le cas du CMI PL, il me semble qu'un
> but, que j'ai entendu il y a longtemps dans l'indymedia soit rempli :
> la difference entre l'indymedia et une organisation coordinatoriste
> est que dans l'indymedia, tu devrais faire ton-ta mieux a << devenir
> inutile >>, puisque nous prefererions passer le temps s'amusant
> avec d'autres gens physiques, non-virtuels : dansant, bavardant,
> mangeant, buvant, s'embrassant, faisant l'amour. Les structures
> hierarchiques et des structures centralisees de dependences
> obligent un groupe a contraindre les gens a constamment, regulierement
> investir leur temps. Une structure non-hierarchique devrait, en tant
> que systeme, fonctionner suffisamment bien meme si l'un-e ou plusieurs
> gens manquent et ne pas les contraindre a etre constamment actif-ve-s
> ou de remplir, par exemple, les << responsabilites editoriales a cacher,
> deplacer des articles >>. Donc, comme je suis devenu inutile au CMI PL,
> je prevois arreter mes activites la-dedans.
>
> je resterai actif dans mon collectif de ville, IMC Torun, ou nous
> nous voyons face a face, regulierement, dans les rencontres publiques
> et souvent par hasard dans la rue.
>
> j'envoie une copie a imc-communication (*non* a imc-process), parce
> que bien que je suis sur que le CMI PL continuera a fonctionner sans moi,
> AMHA il a devie pas mal de plusieurs des Principes d'unite (voir les points
> 4, 6 et 10) et des Criteres d'appartenance au reseau (points c. et f.),
> et puisque ca fait presque cinq ans depuis qu'il a ete accepte dans le
> reseau (octobre 2002), et deux gens plutot actifs sont parti-e-s (l'un
> est devenu tres actif dans le non-officiel << Indymedia PL bis, c.a.d.
> cia.bzzz.net >> parce que leur interpretation anti-sexiste,
> anti-discriminatoire de notre politique editoriale a ete inacceptable
> a certaines personnes, il est donc probablement bon temps a ce que
> le collectif s'enleve de la liste cities et se reorganise selon le
> processus new-imc en tant que collectif nouveau. Si le reseau accepterait
> que le collectif reorganis'e existerait en tant que groupe de discussion/
> site ouaibbe national(iste?) plutot que reseau de groupes locaux,
> face-a-face, a la base, dans ce cas, au moin le collectif IMC PL
> reorganis'e devrait faire la proposition au reseau, qui deciderait
> si oui ou non il accepterait le collectif reorganise.
>
>
> En tous les cas, le groupe mir/kosmos n'aura pas de problemes a
> soutenir l'IMC PL du point de vue technique - la plupart des gens
> du politburo IMC PL parlent couramment l'anglais.
>
>
> solidarite
> boud
> --
> Imc-pl mailing list
> Imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-pl
>
>
>
> --
> Imc-pl mailing list
> Imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-pl
>
>
> I'm protected by SpamBrave
> http://www.spambrave.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMC-communication mailing list
> IMC-communication at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-communication
>