[Imc-communication] answer1/2: [Imc-pl]Fwd: (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make yourself useless

[listinbox]

we are wery pleased that you respected our reguest.
< it is their problem, that they feel pleased aboud it
we are less pleased that you decided to couple your resignation with
revenge.
< try to separate revenge from following plans, aims, older traditions of
what is meant by OPEN SOURCE. and what is meant by bottob-up.
i uderstand that you feel disappointed that people from our and your own
town IMC group stoppped to trust you
< a group builds its own little redaction-insider-circle, it´s own castle.
blocks itself insinde of it. cares more for inner quarrel, trouble making to
each other then for constructive thinking. their problem, that they
interprete this that way.
send bunch of lies about
< every so-called lie is a trial to how to understand their style of
communication, cause every assuming, what might stand behind whitch sentence
is basen on letters that reached us.

rest of it


at

another day. work is waiting.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gosia" <rikefake at o2.pl>
To: <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>
Cc: <imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Imc-pl]Fwd: (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make
yourself useless

hi boud,
we are wery pleased that you respected our reguest.
we are less pleased that you decided to couple your resignation with
revenge.

i uderstand that you feel disappointed that people from our and your own
town IMC group stoppped to trust you and didn't want to cooperate with you
anymore. it is not however the reason good enough to feel resentful and send
bunch of lies about IMC-PL collective. label is not a decent way to solve
your personal problems.

as your accusiations are quite serious and completely ungrounded, i would
like to infom uninformed that:

people from warsaw collective meet every week on fridays. these meetings are
open for everyone. they are advertised on imc-pl site. as local activist
collective and warsaw indymedia collective are basicly the same, quite busy
people, we just decided not to meet in separate days but link meetings of
these groups and devote some time of which for indymedia stuff (whenever
there are things to discuss or new volunteers to introduce) and then for
activist stuff. earlier, for a couple of years we used to meet for these
purposes on separate days but people ceased to have time for that.
we do have a few activists who in their towns have no gruop that could form
a local IMC collective. they help us to maitain imc-pl site and participate
in pur decision processess and we not feel that it would be fair to
discriminate them and deprive them of the right to paricipate in IMC-PL on
the grounds that they do not hold local meetings.

as we are odrinary humans we also prefer to 'spend our time having fun with
other physical, non-virtual people: dancing, talking, eating, drinking,
hugging, making love (in the order you prefer; add other options to taste)'.
it doesn't interfere hovever with our work to maintain imc-pl site, what
cannot be said about boud and torun collective that doesn't participate in
editorial or maintenance work al all.
moreover, i have the feeling that we spent time with psychical indymedia
people from warsaw and other cities a bit more often that boud and the
remains of the 'torun collective'.

we are an open group and do not have any hierarchy. the only person who ever
tried to impose hierarchy in IMC-PL, force gis opinions and speak for others
without their consent was boud. that's why he was asked to cease at least
temporarily his participation in our activities. i can't see any reason to
question our complence with the principles of unity or membership criteria.
we do question sometimes torun accordance with these rules, but treat it as
our internal affair and hope they will finally sort things out for
themselves .

we've been for many years actively involved in fight against any form of
discrimination and we are members of several antidiscriminatory groups,
therefore we find all this blah blah about sexism or discrimination in the
collective  particulary appaling. the fact that we have in our collective
members of several minority groups makes the appearance of such accusations
quite ironic at that. we do have problems with 'colonionial mentality' boud
presens toward local people treating them as uncapable of grasping the
concepts of western thought and constantly needing his guidance. we are
however able to deal with this problem ourselves.

as boud has been deprived the right to act as a spokesperson and to
represent anybody in anyway by people from his own group and nobody from our
former activists have ever authorised him to speak for them and about their
reasons to withdraw from IMC-PL, maybe it's high time for him to stop
acting like a judge. doctor, cure yourself!

sorry for bringing our internal problems to international lists. i just feel
that people who are unfailry accuses should have the chance to defend
themselves.

greetings
g.

-------------
From: boud <boud at riseup.net>
Date: Jul 28, 2007 2:41 AM
Subject: [Imc-pl] (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make yourself
useless
To: imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org, imc-communication at lists.indymedia.orgCc:
imc-pl-torun at lists.indymedia.org

hi imc-pl, imc-communication

(pl na dolu)

(fr ci-dessous)

(en)
hi all,

i have the pleasure to announce that with respect to IMC PL, it seems
to me that thanks to our collective efforts, a goal i heard a long
time ago in indymedia has become reality: the difference between
indymedia and a coordinatorist organisation is that in indymedia, you
should do the best to "make yourself useless", since we would prefer
to spend our time having fun with other physical, non-virtual people:
dancing, talking, eating, drinking, hugging, making love (in the order
you prefer; add other options to taste). Hierarchical structures and
centralised, dependency structures force a group to require people to
constantly, regularly invest their time. A non-hierarchical structure
should, as a system, function well enough even if one or a few people
are missing and not require them to constantly be active or carry out,
e.g. "editorial shifts for hiding/shifting articles". So, as i am now
useless to IMC PL :), i intend to stop my IMC PL activities.

i will remain active in my city collective, IMC Torun, where we meet
each other face-to-face regularly in public meetings and often by
chance in the street.

i'm sending a copy of this to imc-communication (*not* to
imc-process), because although i'm sure that IMC PL will continue to
function without me, IMHO it has deviated quite far from several of
the Principles of Unity (see points 4, 6 and 10) and the Membership
Criteria (points c. and f.), and since it is nearly five years since
it was accepted into the network (October 2002), and two very active
people left the collective (one became active in the unofficial
"Indymedia PL II", a.k.a. cia.bzzz.net) because their anti-sexist,
anti-discrimination interpretation of our editorial policy was
unacceptable to some others, it is probably time for the collective to
remove itself from the cities list and go through the new-imc
organising process as a new collective. If the network is happy for
the reorganised collective to exist as primarily a national(ist?),
internet discussion group/website rather than a network of local,
face-to-face, grassroots groups, then at least the reorganised IMC PL
collective should make that as a proposal to the network, which can
decide whether or not it accepts the reorganised collective.


Anyway, the mir/kosmos group should have no problems supporting IMC PL
technically - most of the IMC PL politburo speak english fluently.

horizontalidad
boud



(pl)
witam

Mam przyjemność ogłosić, że wobec IMC PL, wydaje mi się, że dzięki
naszym kolektywnym wysiłkom, cel, o którym dawno temu słyszałem w
indymediach, stał się rzeczywistością: róźnica między indymediami a
organizacją koordynatorystyczną jest taka, że w indymediach powinniśmy
robić najlepiej tak, aby ,,uczynić siebie zbędnym", ponieważ
wolelibyśmy spędzać nasz czas tańcząc, rozmawiając, jedząc, pijąc,
całując, kochając się (w kolejności, której chcesz; dodaj inne opcje
według smaku). Struktury hierarchiczne i zcentralizowane,
uzależniające struktury zobowiązują osoby do ciągłego, regularnego,
inwestowania czasu. Nie-hierarchiczna struktura powinna, jako system,
funkcjonować wystarczająco dobrze nawet wtedy, gdy kilka osób brakuje
i nie powinna wymagać, aby byli oni ciągle aktywni ani, żeby musieli
np. robić ,,dyżury dla ukrywania/przesunięcia artykułów". Dlatego
też, jako że teraz jestem zbędny dla IMC PL :), zamierzam wycofać się
od mojej aktywności w IMC PL.

Będę jeszcze aktywny w kolektywie miasta, IMC Torun, gdzie spotykamy
się regularnie w publicznych spotkaniach i często przypadkowo na
ulicach.

Wysyłam kopię do imc-communication (*nie* do imc-process), ponieważ,
chociaż jestem pewny, że IMC PL będzie funkcjonować beze mnie, moim
skromnym zdaniem, odbiegło już ono od kilku spośród Pryncypiów Jedności
(zob. punkty 4, 6 i 10) i Kryteriów Członkostwa (zob punkt c. i f.), i
ponieważ minęło już pięć lat od czasu kiedy zostało zaakceptowane w sieci
(paźd 2002r.), i dwie bardzo aktywne osoby wycofały się z kolektywu
(jedna została aktywna w nie-oficjalnym "Indymedia PL II", tzn
cia.bzzz.net) ponieważ ich anty-seksistowska i anty-dyskryminacyjna
interpretacja naszej polityki redakcyjnej była nie-dopuszczalna dla
niektórych innych osób, stąd chyba nadszedł czas aby kolektyw
wycofał się z listy miast (cities list) i zreorganizował się przez
procedury new-imc jako nowy kolektyw. Jeśli sieć indymedia będzie
akceptować nowy kolektyw jako głównie narodow(istyczn?)ą, grupę
dyskusyjną/witrynę www zamiast jako sieć lokalnych, twarzą w twarz,
oddolnych grup, wtedy przynajmniej, zreorganizowany kolektyw IMC PL
powinien to zrobić jako propozycja do sieci, która będzie mogła
zdecydować czy akceptuje zreorganizowany kolektyw czy też nie.


W każdym bądź razie, grupa mir/kosmos nie powinna mieć problemów z
poparciem IMC PL z punktu widzenie technicznego - większość osób
z politbiura IMC PL biegle mówi po angielsku.

pozdr
boud



(fr)
salut a tou-te-s

j'ai le plaisir d'annoncer que dans le cas du CMI PL, il me semble qu'un
but, que j'ai entendu il y a longtemps dans l'indymedia soit rempli :
la difference entre l'indymedia et une organisation coordinatoriste
est que dans l'indymedia, tu devrais faire ton-ta mieux a << devenir
inutile >>, puisque nous prefererions passer le temps s'amusant
avec d'autres gens physiques, non-virtuels : dansant, bavardant,
mangeant, buvant, s'embrassant, faisant l'amour. Les structures
hierarchiques et des structures centralisees de dependences
obligent un groupe a contraindre les gens a constamment, regulierement
investir leur temps. Une structure non-hierarchique devrait, en tant
que systeme, fonctionner suffisamment bien meme si l'un-e ou plusieurs
gens manquent et ne pas les contraindre a etre constamment actif-ve-s
ou de remplir, par exemple, les << responsabilites editoriales a cacher,
deplacer des articles >>. Donc, comme je suis devenu inutile au CMI PL,
je prevois arreter mes activites la-dedans.

je resterai actif dans mon collectif de ville, IMC Torun, ou nous
nous voyons face a face, regulierement, dans les rencontres publiques
et souvent par hasard dans la rue.

j'envoie une copie a imc-communication (*non* a imc-process), parce
que bien que je suis sur que le CMI PL continuera a fonctionner sans moi,
AMHA il a devie pas mal de plusieurs des Principes d'unite (voir les points
4, 6 et 10) et des Criteres d'appartenance au reseau (points c. et f.),
et puisque ca fait presque cinq ans depuis qu'il a ete accepte dans le
reseau (octobre 2002), et deux gens plutot actifs sont parti-e-s (l'un
est devenu tres actif dans le non-officiel << Indymedia PL bis, c.a.d.
cia.bzzz.net >> parce que leur interpretation anti-sexiste,
anti-discriminatoire de notre politique editoriale a ete inacceptable
a certaines personnes, il est donc probablement bon temps a ce que
le collectif s'enleve de la liste cities et se reorganise selon le
processus new-imc en tant que collectif nouveau. Si le reseau accepterait
que le collectif reorganis'e existerait en tant que groupe de discussion/
site ouaibbe national(iste?) plutot que reseau de groupes locaux,
face-a-face, a la base, dans ce cas, au moin le collectif IMC PL
reorganis'e devrait faire la proposition au reseau, qui deciderait
si oui ou non il accepterait le collectif reorganise.


En tous les cas, le groupe mir/kosmos n'aura pas de problemes a
soutenir l'IMC PL du point de vue technique - la plupart des gens
du politburo IMC PL parlent couramment l'anglais.


solidarite
boud
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