[Imc-communication] [Imc-pl]Fwd: (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make yourself useless

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> > we are wery pleased that you respected our reguest.
> > < it is their problem, that they feel pleased aboud it
> > we are less pleased that you decided to couple your resignation with
> > revenge.
> > < try to separate revenge from following plans, aims, older traditions
of
> > what is meant by OPEN SOURCE. and what is meant by bottob-up.
> > i uderstand that you feel disappointed that people from our and your own
> > town IMC group stoppped to trust you
> > < a group builds its own little redaction-insider-circle, it´s own
castle.
> > blocks itself insinde of it. cares more for inner quarrel, trouble
making
> to
> > each other then for constructive thinking. their problem, that they
> > interprete this that way.
> > send bunch of lies about
> > < every so-called lie is a trial to how to understand their style of
> > communication, cause every assuming, what might stand behind whitch
> sentence
> > is basen on letters that reached us.
> >
> > rest of it
> >
> >
> > at
> >
> > another day. work is waiting.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "gosia" <rikefake at o2.pl>
> > To: <imc-communication at lists.indymedia.org>
> > Cc: <imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 5:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Imc-pl]Fwd: (en) (fr) (pl) IMC
PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make
> > yourself useless
> >
> > hi boud,
> > we are wery pleased that you respected our reguest.
> > we are less pleased that you decided to couple your resignation with
> > revenge.
> >
> > i uderstand that you feel disappointed that people from our and your own
> > town IMC group stoppped to trust you and didn't want to cooperate with
you
> > anymore. it is not however the reason good enough to feel resentful and
> send
> > bunch of lies about IMC-PL collective. label is not a decent way to
solve
> > your personal problems.
> >
> > as your accusiations are quite serious and completely ungrounded, i
would
> > like to infom uninformed that:
> >
> > people from warsaw collective meet every week on fridays. these meetings
> are
> > open for everyone. they are advertised on imc-pl site. as local activist
> > collective and warsaw indymedia collective are basicly the same, quite
> busy
> > people, we just decided not to meet in separate days but link meetings
of
> > these groups and devote some time of which for indymedia stuff (whenever
> > there are things to discuss or new volunteers to introduce) and then for
> > activist stuff. earlier, for a couple of years we used to meet for these
> > purposes on separate days but people ceased to have time for that.
> > we do have a few activists who in their towns have no gruop that could
> form
> > a local IMC collective. they help us to maitain imc-pl site and
> participate
> > in pur decision processess and we not feel that it would be fair to
> > discriminate them and deprive them of the right to paricipate in IMC-PL
on
> > the grounds that they do not hold local meetings.
> >
> > as we are odrinary humans we also prefer to 'spend our time having fun
> with
> > other physical, non-virtual people: dancing, talking, eating, drinking,
> > hugging, making love (in the order you prefer; add other options to
> taste)'.
> > it doesn't interfere hovever with our work to maintain imc-pl site, what
> > cannot be said about boud and torun collective that doesn't participate
in
> > editorial or maintenance work al all.
> > moreover, i have the feeling that we spent time with psychical indymedia
> > people from warsaw and other cities a bit more often that boud and the
> > remains of the 'torun collective'.
> >
> > we are an open group and do not have any hierarchy. the only person who
> ever
> > tried to impose hierarchy in IMC-PL, force gis opinions and speak for
> others
> > without their consent was boud. that's why he was asked to cease at
least
> > temporarily his participation in our activities. i can't see any reason
to
> > question our complence with the principles of unity or membership
> criteria.
> > we do question sometimes torun accordance with these rules, but treat it
> as
> > our internal affair and hope they will finally sort things out for
> > themselves .
> >
> > we've been for many years actively involved in fight against any form of
> > discrimination and we are members of several antidiscriminatory groups,
> > therefore we find all this blah blah about sexism or discrimination in
the
> > collective  particulary appaling. the fact that we have in our
collective
> > members of several minority groups makes the appearance of such
> accusations
> > quite ironic at that. we do have problems with 'colonionial mentality'
> boud
> > presens toward local people treating them as uncapable of grasping the
> > concepts of western thought and constantly needing his guidance. we are
> > however able to deal with this problem ourselves.
> >
> > as boud has been deprived the right to act as a spokesperson and to
> > represent anybody in anyway by people from his own group and nobody from
> our
> > former activists have ever authorised him to speak for them and about
> their
> > reasons to withdraw from IMC-PL, maybe it's high time for him to stop
> > acting like a judge. doctor, cure yourself!
> >
> > sorry for bringing our internal problems to international lists. i just
> feel
> > that people who are unfailry accuses should have the chance to defend
> > themselves.
> >
> > greetings
> > g.
> >
> > -------------
> > From: boud <boud at riseup.net>
> > Date: Jul 28, 2007 2:41 AM
> > Subject: [Imc-pl] (en) (fr) (pl) IMC PL/PofUnity/MembCriteria/make
> yourself
> > useless
> > To: imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org, imc-communication at lists.indymedia.orgCc:
> > imc-pl-torun at lists.indymedia.org
> >
> > hi imc-pl, imc-communication
> >
> > (pl na dolu)
> >
> > (fr ci-dessous)
> >
> > (en)
> > hi all,
> >
> > i have the pleasure to announce that with respect to IMC PL, it seems
> > to me that thanks to our collective efforts, a goal i heard a long
> > time ago in indymedia has become reality: the difference between
> > indymedia and a coordinatorist organisation is that in indymedia, you
> > should do the best to "make yourself useless", since we would prefer
> > to spend our time having fun with other physical, non-virtual people:
> > dancing, talking, eating, drinking, hugging, making love (in the order
> > you prefer; add other options to taste). Hierarchical structures and
> > centralised, dependency structures force a group to require people to
> > constantly, regularly invest their time. A non-hierarchical structure
> > should, as a system, function well enough even if one or a few people
> > are missing and not require them to constantly be active or carry out,
> > e.g. "editorial shifts for hiding/shifting articles". So, as i am now
> > useless to IMC PL :), i intend to stop my IMC PL activities.
> >
> > i will remain active in my city collective, IMC Torun, where we meet
> > each other face-to-face regularly in public meetings and often by
> > chance in the street.
> >
> > i'm sending a copy of this to imc-communication (*not* to
> > imc-process), because although i'm sure that IMC PL will continue to
> > function without me, IMHO it has deviated quite far from several of
> > the Principles of Unity (see points 4, 6 and 10) and the Membership
> > Criteria (points c. and f.), and since it is nearly five years since
> > it was accepted into the network (October 2002), and two very active
> > people left the collective (one became active in the unofficial
> > "Indymedia PL II", a.k.a. cia.bzzz.net) because their anti-sexist,
> > anti-discrimination interpretation of our editorial policy was
> > unacceptable to some others, it is probably time for the collective to
> > remove itself from the cities list and go through the new-imc
> > organising process as a new collective. If the network is happy for
> > the reorganised collective to exist as primarily a national(ist?),
> > internet discussion group/website rather than a network of local,
> > face-to-face, grassroots groups, then at least the reorganised IMC PL
> > collective should make that as a proposal to the network, which can
> > decide whether or not it accepts the reorganised collective.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, the mir/kosmos group should have no problems supporting IMC PL
> > technically - most of the IMC PL politburo speak english fluently.
> >
> > horizontalidad
> > boud
> >
> >
> >
> > (pl)
> > witam
> >
> > Mam przyjemność ogłosić, że wobec IMC PL, wydaje mi się, że dzięki
> > naszym kolektywnym wysiłkom, cel, o którym dawno temu słyszałem w
> > indymediach, stał się rzeczywistością: róźnica między indymediami a
> > organizacją koordynatorystyczną jest taka, że w indymediach powinniśmy
> > robić najlepiej tak, aby ,,uczynić siebie zbędnym", ponieważ
> > wolelibyśmy spędzać nasz czas tańcząc, rozmawiając, jedząc, pijąc,
> > całując, kochając się (w kolejności, której chcesz; dodaj inne opcje
> > według smaku). Struktury hierarchiczne i zcentralizowane,
> > uzależniające struktury zobowiązują osoby do ciągłego, regularnego,
> > inwestowania czasu. Nie-hierarchiczna struktura powinna, jako system,
> > funkcjonować wystarczająco dobrze nawet wtedy, gdy kilka osób brakuje
> > i nie powinna wymagać, aby byli oni ciągle aktywni ani, żeby musieli
> > np. robić ,,dyżury dla ukrywania/przesunięcia artykułów". Dlatego
> > też, jako że teraz jestem zbędny dla IMC PL :), zamierzam wycofać się
> > od mojej aktywności w IMC PL.
> >
> > Będę jeszcze aktywny w kolektywie miasta, IMC Torun, gdzie spotykamy
> > się regularnie w publicznych spotkaniach i często przypadkowo na
> > ulicach.
> >
> > Wysyłam kopię do imc-communication (*nie* do imc-process), ponieważ,
> > chociaż jestem pewny, że IMC PL będzie funkcjonować beze mnie, moim
> > skromnym zdaniem, odbiegło już ono od kilku spośród Pryncypiów Jedności
> > (zob. punkty 4, 6 i 10) i Kryteriów Członkostwa (zob punkt c. i f.), i
> > ponieważ minęło już pięć lat od czasu kiedy zostało zaakceptowane w
sieci
> > (paźd 2002r.), i dwie bardzo aktywne osoby wycofały się z kolektywu
> > (jedna została aktywna w nie-oficjalnym "Indymedia PL II", tzn
> > cia.bzzz.net) ponieważ ich anty-seksistowska i anty-dyskryminacyjna
> > interpretacja naszej polityki redakcyjnej była nie-dopuszczalna dla
> > niektórych innych osób, stąd chyba nadszedł czas aby kolektyw
> > wycofał się z listy miast (cities list) i zreorganizował się przez
> > procedury new-imc jako nowy kolektyw. Jeśli sieć indymedia będzie
> > akceptować nowy kolektyw jako głównie narodow(istyczn?)ą, grupę
> > dyskusyjną/witrynę www zamiast jako sieć lokalnych, twarzą w twarz,
> > oddolnych grup, wtedy przynajmniej, zreorganizowany kolektyw IMC PL
> > powinien to zrobić jako propozycja do sieci, która będzie mogła
> > zdecydować czy akceptuje zreorganizowany kolektyw czy też nie.
> >
> >
> > W każdym bądź razie, grupa mir/kosmos nie powinna mieć problemów z
> > poparciem IMC PL z punktu widzenie technicznego - większość osób
> > z politbiura IMC PL biegle mówi po angielsku.
> >
> > pozdr
> > boud
> >
> >
> >
> > (fr)
> > salut a tou-te-s
> >
> > j'ai le plaisir d'annoncer que dans le cas du CMI PL, il me semble qu'un
> > but, que j'ai entendu il y a longtemps dans l'indymedia soit rempli :
> > la difference entre l'indymedia et une organisation coordinatoriste
> > est que dans l'indymedia, tu devrais faire ton-ta mieux a << devenir
> > inutile >>, puisque nous prefererions passer le temps s'amusant
> > avec d'autres gens physiques, non-virtuels : dansant, bavardant,
> > mangeant, buvant, s'embrassant, faisant l'amour. Les structures
> > hierarchiques et des structures centralisees de dependences
> > obligent un groupe a contraindre les gens a constamment, regulierement
> > investir leur temps. Une structure non-hierarchique devrait, en tant
> > que systeme, fonctionner suffisamment bien meme si l'un-e ou plusieurs
> > gens manquent et ne pas les contraindre a etre constamment actif-ve-s
> > ou de remplir, par exemple, les << responsabilites editoriales a cacher,
> > deplacer des articles >>. Donc, comme je suis devenu inutile au CMI PL,
> > je prevois arreter mes activites la-dedans.
> >
> > je resterai actif dans mon collectif de ville, IMC Torun, ou nous
> > nous voyons face a face, regulierement, dans les rencontres publiques
> > et souvent par hasard dans la rue.
> >
> > j'envoie une copie a imc-communication (*non* a imc-process), parce
> > que bien que je suis sur que le CMI PL continuera a fonctionner sans
moi,
> > AMHA il a devie pas mal de plusieurs des Principes d'unite (voir les
> points
> > 4, 6 et 10) et des Criteres d'appartenance au reseau (points c. et f.),
> > et puisque ca fait presque cinq ans depuis qu'il a ete accepte dans le
> > reseau (octobre 2002), et deux gens plutot actifs sont parti-e-s (l'un
> > est devenu tres actif dans le non-officiel << Indymedia PL bis, c.a.d.
> > cia.bzzz.net >> parce que leur interpretation anti-sexiste,
> > anti-discriminatoire de notre politique editoriale a ete inacceptable
> > a certaines personnes, il est donc probablement bon temps a ce que
> > le collectif s'enleve de la liste cities et se reorganise selon le
> > processus new-imc en tant que collectif nouveau. Si le reseau
accepterait
> > que le collectif reorganis'e existerait en tant que groupe de
discussion/
> > site ouaibbe national(iste?) plutot que reseau de groupes locaux,
> > face-a-face, a la base, dans ce cas, au moin le collectif IMC PL
> > reorganis'e devrait faire la proposition au reseau, qui deciderait
> > si oui ou non il accepterait le collectif reorganise.
> >
> >
> > En tous les cas, le groupe mir/kosmos n'aura pas de problemes a
> > soutenir l'IMC PL du point de vue technique - la plupart des gens
> > du politburo IMC PL parlent couramment l'anglais.
> >
> >
> > solidarite
> > boud
> > --
> > Imc-pl mailing list
> > Imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org
> > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-pl
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > Imc-pl mailing list
> > Imc-pl at lists.indymedia.org
> > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-pl
> >
> >
> > I'm protected by SpamBrave
> > http://www.spambrave.com/
> >
>
>
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