[New-imc] Re: [IMC-Process] update and translation of IMC handbook
clara
clara at ifrik.org
Thu Apr 22 12:25:35 PDT 2004
Hoi
--------------------
summary: question on why a book is "published by Indymedia" and concerns
about the general understanding of the decision making on imc-process
---------------
sorry no spanish because I couldn't find a spanish translator for 2 days now
---------------
my opion on this issue as well, eventhough Libby said quite a lot already:
First of all, I think there clearly very big difference in the opinion on
wether anybody can speak in the name of Indymedia. Or publish as Indymedia
for that matter.
I know that a lot of local IMCs (including the one I am with) make a point
of people speaking as "one of Indymedia", "Indymedia volunteer" etc instead
of as Indymedia, because speaking as "Indymedia" gives the impression that
there is one central Indymedia. It discards all the different structures
that local IMCs have developed.
I therefore have problems with a book published by Indymedia as such. I
don't have any problem with any group deciding to publish something as
their group, but the Indymedia network did not take any such decision.
I am not aware how the practical co-operation on this issue went, but I
would like to extend this problem not only to those individuals preparing
the meeting in Dakhar, but also to imc-print and to IMC Urbana-Champaign.
Secondly, there hasn't been any proper proposal to imc-process on this
issue. There have been two or three mails in which was asked for input for
a brochure, but there was no proposal that stated that a book was meant to
be published by Indymedia. Certainly not one that met the procedure that we
have given ourselves: bi-lingual and with a proper deadline.
Communication about procedures is always a bit difficult, but I suppose we
need also need a clearer description of how imc-process is working to avoid
situations like this, where an individual will send a couple of mails and
afterwards claim that something was approved by imc-process.
Love and solidarity,
Clara
At 00:08 20/04/2004, valentine V eben wrote:
>Hi Again!
> >From the reply I see there are three problems.
>One calling it brochure at one point and book at another.
>the other that the brochure/book was not presented new imc working group
>and the third that it had "published by indymedia".
>
>For the first problem I hardly have anything to say, when the content of
>the book/brochure was present to imc-process.
>For the second I think everyone involve in newimc is either in process or
>her/his local imc has a laison in process. New imc is a working group to
>handle applications from new imc collectives wanting to be part of the
>network. If the brochure/book was to be presented to newimc specially then
>every other network working group too should have the right to request
>same as it was going to mention their work too or present it in print
>format.Seeing newimc have recieved the copies of this exchanges, i hope
>some activists from newimc who missed out on the discussion becuase it was
>not present to newimc working group can now hopefully participate.
>
>About the fact that it was written "published by indymedia" I I still do
>not think in it was a topic to write an extra presentation about see the
>discussion took place in a network working group. We talked that over irc
>with you and Clara and concluded that I bring this issue specifically to
>process which I have done. Whatever position the imc-process will take
>about this you surely know it will be applied. If imc-process thinks that
>"published by indymedia" is an act of usurp, then I'm sure some imc will
>veto that being maintained as you pointed out to me in the irc. In an
>other case if imc-process considers that a book that bears mostly network
>material like a network website, like a network twiki pages is the
>property of the network and should have the stamp of the network then it
>will be as it is. I hope members of the network will see this like an
>issue to think about and come up with a network appropriate response(ideas).
>Regards
>Sphinx
>
>
>--------- Original Message ---------
>
>DATE: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:21:04
>From: libby <libbylibby at skynet.be>
>To: imc-process at lists.indymedia.org
>Cc: imc-africa at lists.indymedia.org,New imc <new-imc at lists.indymedia.org>,
>imc-print at lists.indymedia.or
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >I'll put my repies in between
> >
> >valentine V eben wrote:
> >
> >>Hi all! Hi Libby! Exactly all what you said about how the process
> should have been is exactly the way the process was.
> >>About the issue of the info being out-dated you are not correct, while
> newimc.indymedia.org was used like the reference all the content was from
> the updated twiki.
> >> It will be nice if you have any particular improvement/updates that
> you join the discussion on this in print.
> >>http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-process/2004-January/005531.html
> >>
> >>The only new information "the womyn proposal" for newimcs is what we
> are talking about it being included in the update.
> >>
> >>The project was proposed as: "The idea is to have a hardcopy of what
> indymedia is and how it functions." AND NOT AS >"compiling a small
> brochure" for limited distribution and >internal use at the Dakar conference.
> >>That is the reason why the proposed content was sent to process again
> after haven first asked for activists to volunteer in preparing the
> brochure. In the mail with this information of what have been selected as
> material for book there was a further invitation for activists to come
> over to print and continue the discussion there.
> >>http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-process/2004-January/005531.html
> >>http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-process/2004-January/005505.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Both these mail refer to a brochure for the Dakar conference, not to a
> >book that would be written by or published by indymedia
> >
> >>In imc-print the proposed material was improved on by other activists.
> >>http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-print/2004-January/005780.html
> >>
> >>
> >>-There was as well a discussion as to who should be the publisher. The
> material as you probably can see on the links is not in the typical
> publisher without author automatic means author is publisher format.
> Being a handbook it is an editor and publisher format which was discussed.
> >>http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-print/2004-February/005789.html
> >>
> >>
> >This discussion should not have been held in "print" , "print" is not a
> >decision making group, its a workgroup. Not all imc's have a liaison on
> >print, this issue should have been discussed on the process list, so
> >every imc could have had their input.
> >
> >>
> >>-After layout, activists where asked to controlled the material before
> it was finally printed.
> >>http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-print/2004-February/005788.html
> >>Thus it was not like one person or some few people made decisions on
> behalf of the network.Process was informed and all those who wish to
> participate where invited to imc-print where issues having to do with
> print are discussed and where the idea of any indymedia handbook is not new.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Hetre there is still only talk about a brochure, here again it was
> >omitted to propose this as a book to the whole network through imc
> >process. Maybe its more than a few people, but it was not the entire
> >network.
> >
> >>the first page the network is developing very quickly that some
> information about the network in print format is surely going to be
> always out dated. But there is also true that we need a network handbook.
> We'll just have be be updating it every now and then as we do the
> websites and twiki, i think
> >>
> >>
> >I still think ist a big shame that the project was never presented to
> >the New Imc group, i am convinced their input would have helped you put
> >togehter a better brocure.
> >
> >>Regards Sphinx
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Regards,
> >
> >Libby
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hello Everybody,
> >>>
> >>>I'd just likte to put in my two cents worth on this issue
> >>>
> >>>Firt of all, wouldn't it be a better idea to use the translations that
> >>>are allready on the wiki and more up to date then start translating the
> >>>outdated info in the book?
> >>>I don't see the point in putting time and effort in the translation of
> >>>the info that was originally on newimc.indymedia.org (which has recently
> >>>be replaced with links to the wiki because it was so outdated)
> >>>Ok, the damage on the english version has been done,I suppose that
> >>>cannot be changed anymore, but there is no need to repeat it in other
> >>>languages.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Next, this project was originally presented as "compiling a small
> >>>brochure" for limited distribution and internal use at the Dakar
> >>>conference. Somwere along the way one or a few person(s) decided to make
> >>>it into a book (to be spread wider) with an author/publisher without
> >>>seeking consensus about it with the whole network.
> >>>
> >>>Once it got to this point it would only have been fair to annouce the
> >>>plan of a book that was gonna be printed and have the editor/author be
> >>>Indymedia with as content the new imc process to the new imc list, so
> >>>people actually envolved in getting new imc's on their feet could have
> >>>been envolved. I am sure newimc volunteers would have been willing to
> >>>help out and the book would have been up to date.
> >>>
> >>>It would also have been better if it had been annouced on the process
> >>>list, requesting consensus on having a book published with "Indymedia"
> >>>as author/publisher. This is not a decision that can be made by one
> >>>person, a small group of people or just one collective, that is a
> >>>decision that should give every imc in the network the chance to be
> >>>envolved in the decision making process, i believe that is how it
> >>>usually works.
> >>>
> >>>In itself it was a great initiative, but the result is that now there is
> >>>a book outthere, a recent book, by Indymedia with totally outdated
> >>>information, which i'm affraid makes the whole network look like a bunch
> >>>of amateurs that cannot do any better than publish outdated (so false)
> >>>information about something as basic as how to join the network.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>In solidarity,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Libby
> >>>
> >>>valentine V eben wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Hi all! from our discussion in January and Febuary in process and
> continued in print we did print the handbook materials as was proposed
> and amended.
> >>>>For those who are new to process and print, this handbook is an
> attempt at producing a hardcopy of http://newimc.indymedia.org, of course
> including the updated text from the twiki pages. The idea is to provide a
> print version of what indymedia is-internal processes and how to be involved.
> >>>>IMC-UC covered the cost of the first printing.
> >>>>
> >>>>TRANSLATION AND DISTRIBUTION
> >>>>Presently there is a discussion with UCIMC(IGAP) and Seattle IMC(GSF)
> on translation and more distribution.
> >>>>Dri from imc-Brasil is trying to coordinate translation.
> >>>>At the moment it seems Mike from schNEWS is also into translation
> into spanish. Sherri is talking with
> >>>>Luz from imc-Chiapas she too may be into assisting with the spanish
> translation. Dri will surely be taking charge of portuguese translation.
> >>>>We need more people to help with translation in other languages. We
> also need to discuss about how to handle distribution especially for
> those who are trying to organise imcs in areas without much online
> access. Again the place for this is imc-print at lists.indymedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>PROPOSALS FOR UPDATING THE FIRST EDITION
> >>>>-1.)There have been a proposal to update the documentation to
> included the recent changes that came into place since the womyn
> proposal. Which includes changes on the application form. There was a
> discussion to have the womyn proposal be included in membership Criteria
> and or in Principles of unity. If there is any other place other than the
> link below where this proposal have been included in the
> >>>>network documentation please mail the link to imc-print.
> >>>>-2.) There was also the proposal to include a small
> introduction/howto on twiki in future editions of the book.
> >>>>-3.)There was the proposal to include what mainstream media say about
> indymedia in the next edition.
> >>>>Please we are inviting people to take a while and look at the book as
> it is and to join the discussion on changes and improvements need in the
> next editions, in imc-print.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>DISCUSSIONS SINCE THE PRINTING OF THE FIRST EDITION
> >>>>Some activists have complained that thought the book contains
> material from indymedia online resources put together as a printed
> version of the network online documentation IT IS NOT CORRECT TO HAVE
> WRITTEN ON THE BOOK
> >>>>PRINTED BY INDYMEDIA. The activists in question think that though
> there was a presentation to process and a discussion in print, it was all
> about the content. That this presentation did not make clear that it will
> be written on the book "published by indymedia" though the content is a
> print version of indymedia online text. The point was that it gives the
> book too much authority, that such a decision needed to be arrived at
> from a network consensus.
> >>>>The other side of the argument is that writing on the book that it
> was published by indymedia was to give credit for the book where it
> belongs-indymedia network, which have right to the content on
> http://newimc.indymedia.org.
> >>>>Well I'll ask that you take time off and read atleast the
> introduction page of the book in the link below and give your opinion
> what you think on this issue preferable in process.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>-Links to download book
> >>>>http://www.hedonistpress.com/indymedia/
> >>>>http://docs.indymedia.org/twiki/pub/Global/FirstEditionOfINDYMEDIAHAND
> BOOK/v1.1.pdf
> >>>>-Link to page for book translation
> >>>>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/FirstEditionOfINDYMEDIAHANDBOOK
> >>>>-link to newimc form including womyn proposal
> >>>>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewIMCForm
> >>>>-link tp what mainstream media say about indymedia
> >>>>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/StoriesAboutIndymedia
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--------- Original Message ---------
> >>>>
> >>>>DATE: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 10:47:42
> >>>>From: "dri" <dri at indymedia.org>
> >>>>To: imc-print at lists.indymedia.org
> >>>>Cc:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>oi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>since the discussion about the imc book is going on here i felt i should
> >>>>>subscribe to get involved and check the status of the project.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>i added a link to some ideas about trasnlations into other languages
> here:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/FirstEditionOfINDYMEDIAHANDBOOK
> >>>>>
> >>>>>for those who don't know me, i'm a olunteer of imc brazil, involved
> in the
> >>>>>indy world since june 2001.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>peace,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>dri
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>New-imc at lists.indymedia.org
> >>>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/new-imc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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