Picture Reading WAS Re: [imc-sheffield] Educational Presentation on what a Free Society means
againstthewar at totalserve.co.uk
Sat Oct 23 08:02:12 PDT 2004
chip> this is no big thing but...
chip> atw said:
>> chip> maybe atw doesn't agree with all of it - or is it really just the
>> chip> way it's presented?
>> I don't like trying to indocrinate people full stop. That is part of
>> the system I'm against and I don't want to change things by using
>> their tactics - coz ultimately that means things will just stay the
chip> why should putting forward a particular point of view automatically
chip> qualify as indoctrination.
It doesn't but that's not what I said. It's the way you put forward
and opinion IMO. This is done TV news style. It assumes that opinions
and ideas are absolute fact and they can't be questioned. The idea of
'rights' is an example. 'Human Rights' are just an idea, part of a
philosophy that you may or may not believe in or agree with. Yet often
they are portrayed in away that they are absolute truths, which makes
it hard to even think about questioning the idea.
Some of the stuff in the animation came across that way to me.
chip> agreed, indoctrination is not something we should be getting into and if
chip> that is your starting point with regard to this animation then you will,
chip> indeed, be forced to conclude that it is not an appropriate presentation.
chip> 'indoctrination' is not a black-and-white issue: what is indoctrination ot
chip> one person or group might not be seen the same way as others. the entire
chip> Indymedia project, no doubt, is viewed as some form of anarchist
chip> indoctrination and, as we know all too well, the State will take
chip> 'counter-indoctrination' measures against it.
I don't think that's true because Indymedia is no one person's or one
groups perspective. There is also scope to question every article in
the comments section.
chip> earlier, i believe that you said:
>>> Sorry I really don't like this. Seems excessively didactic IMO - it
>>> comes across as something to indocrinate children with.
chip> i don't really know what you mean here as what sort of material do you
chip> mean is usually used to indoctrinate children, in particular? have you
chip> any specific examples? i suppose there are the myriad forms of corporate
chip> advertising but the "Free Society" thing doesn't remind much me of
chip> anything i've ever seen before - the production values are far too basic
chip> for a start.
It reminds of something I probably saw at school or on kids TV. But
that was a long time ago so I can't be specific I'm afraid.
chip> and what have children got to do with it? "think of the effect on the
chip> children" is a particularly specious and obdurate assertion that the
chip> right-wing, in particular, like to throw up as a smokescreen in opposition
chip> to liberal and enlightened views and policies on media liberalisation,
chip> drug education, sex education, and so on. to use such an argument, in my
chip> view, particularly goes against the 'Indymedia ethos' (whatever that is).
chip> next you'll be talking about 'the danger stalking our streets'...
I think you've misquoted me there ol' bean.
>> As for the content some of it's OK but some of it I don't agree with.
chip> please explain a bit more.
I don't want to have to download it again. It takes ages. But
bascially I didn't agree with some of the ideas it was portraying as
>> It presumes certain beliefs of the viewer which may or may not be true
chip> uh? like what?
>> - and that is manipulative in the same way the BBC news is.
chip> dunno what you mean.
>> Therefore I think it go completely against the Indymedia ethos to show
>> something like that.
chip> i don't know what you mean by the Indymedia ethos other than a willingness
chip> to challenge mainstream media (like your BBC above), the promotion of a
chip> liberal and libertarian viewpoint, and the use of tactical media channels
chip> to do so.
What I mean by the Indymedia ethos is to do with empowering others to
think for themselves. This is done through reporting news through
I found that this animation didn't leave much room for thought on the
part of the viewer. It was more like something you had to remember....
here's some philosophy - remember it, don't question it.
I think there's a big difference between reporting something that
happened, like say a demo, and body of political and philosophical
ideas. Facts can be true or false.
There was a demo at Menwith Hill - true/false
We are all born equal - ?????????
If we're going to show stuff that is pure ideas then I think we should
show opposing ideas too and let people make up there own minds. That
way we are empowering them in the same way that Indymedia does.
chip> so if we do have the odd 5-10 mins to fill at the festival, i
chip> think i'd like to show it. perhaps use it as a festival trailer
chip> as a real propaganda tool in order to try to warp as many minds
chip> as possible - we can then start targetting the schools when
chip> half-term has finished.
Well obviously, for the above reasons, I don't agree.
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