[Imc-uk-features] Re a letter allegedly sent to me which was posted instead to Rizzo's anti-Semitic PEPA site

Thu Nov 8 19:16:36 PST 2007

I assume that this is the means by which I contribute to one of the threads re Atzmon.  However this is also addressed to the collective whose decision, in the absence of any decision, is to allow an anti-Semitic article to stay up.

  Tony Greenstein

  Dear Anonymous Moderator of Indymedia,

  I note your comment about ‘It doesn't help if you think you have the right to be rude to Indy volunteers’. Presumably you believe that it is polite that I should read a letter addressed to me on the anti-Semitic list of Mary Rizzo since you haven’t bothered to actually send me the letter below. However I’m not interest in the question of etiquette.
  What you are saying is that my response to Atzmon’s overtly anti-Semitic article has been hidden but that you are quite happy to carry his article. Fine. But don’t pretend that that is not a political decision. And if you are going to be honest then you should drop your guidelines. The last time I looked they stated:
  ‘Articles and/or comments may be hidden for the following reasons:    
   Discrimination : posts using language, imagery, or other forms of communication promoting racism, fascism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination.
  It would be more honest if you were to delete this guideline rather than pretending to something you are unable to achieve.
  It is clear re ‘knuckles’ that this is Atzmon using an alias. In much the same way that Atzmon has posted other material in other places using similar aliases such as ‘Yocheved’.
  Yes I have said that the accusation of ‘anti-Semitism’ is used to defame and intimidate anti-Zionists and supporters of the Palestinians. However it is also the case that on occasion an accusation of anti-Semitism is actually true. I accept that one of the consequences of Zionists labelling their opponents as ‘anti-Semitic’ is, unfortunately, to drain the term of much of its meaning, but that is no excuse for you to give up on trying to make a clear distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. 
  You state that ‘I think that it would be a bad move on our part to automatically take your side on this matter. It is better in the long run, for all of us, if the kneejerk response to calls of anti-semitism is relaced with an informed decision.’ At no time have I asked you to take ‘my’ side in this matter or make an uninformed decision nor to make a ‘knee jerk’ response. You have after all had two weeks to make a decision, but by your own admission ‘it isn't going to be a quick process.’ It is clear that you are incapable of making such a decision since you clearly do not understand anti-Semitism or, more generally, racism even when it stares you in the face.
  You give 2 reasons for not taking Atzmon’s overtly anti-Semitic article down.
  1. When I cite Atzmon as stating that ‘Within the Judaic worldview, history and ethics are often reduced into a banal single binary opposition principle
" you complain that I don’t add his qualification, viz. that ‘it isn’t just the Israelis who personalise conflicts
.’ Leaving aside Atzmon’s conflation of Jews and Israelis, this is a further example of the problem. The term I object to is the reference to ‘the Judaic worldview’. Judaic in my dictionary means relating to Jews or Judaism. It is inherently anti-Semitic to talk about a Judaic or Jewish worldview and the idea that there is such a thing as a Jewish or Arab etc. world view is inherently racist. Such expressions were integral to the idea of the world Jewish conspiracy and a common ingredient of writers such as Henrich Class, Houston Chamberlain and Gobineau. Clearly you are incapable of recognising the clearest formulations of racism. Atzmon’s qualifier was therefore meaningless.
  Your second example is Atzmon’s statement that "the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago’. You state that there are ‘other ways of reading the text’ and suggest that my criticism is personally motivated. Far from it. Personal abuse is entirely Atzmon’s forte.
  Atzmon’s statement, which is in any case false, is made in the context of what he describes as 'the real meaning of their Holocaust’. And what is this ‘real meaning of the Holocaust’? It is the unpopularity of the Jews who were exterminated. Forgive me, but I thought the Nazi holocaust had something to do with the rise of fascism and its Nazi variant. Perhaps Atzmon’s racist nonsense also holds for the extermination of up to half a million gypsies, 3 million Poles and thousands of gays? By the same token they too were all ‘unpopular’ and by the same ‘logic’ were also therefore responsible for their own demise.
  Clearly your search for consensus is going to be a meaningless activity since you appear to be incapable of understanding the most vile racist statements. In the circumstances it is probably a good thing that you are publicly displaying Atzmon’s article and hiding my response because that at least illustrates where the collective stands on the matter.
  Tony Greenstein

  >> [Imc-uk-features] A response to Tony Greenstein's hidden article
  From one of the moderators of the Indymedia board
  Wed Nov 7 04:38:01 PST 2007
  Dear Tony
  Your article of last night has been hidden, as it is essentially a complaint about moderation, and our editorial guidelines (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/editorial.html) (which I note you quote)
  state:
  "Concerns about editorial guidelines or queries about moderation are dealt with on the imc-uk-features list. These issues are not dealt with through the newswire, and newswire posts on these topics will be hidden."
  In your email to contact, you stated:
  "On most occasions accusations of anti-Semitism, especially by Zionists against those supporting the Palestinians are a form of defamation."
  ie you advised that claims of anti-semitism are not to be taken at face value, as the term is often misused in order to defame critics - especially those who support Palestinians.
  You then go on to say:
  "In this case they are unfortunately true."
  ie you claim that we can trust you to have got it right.
  However, there is a glaring error in your email:
  "In most 'Knuckes' contributions like the above Atzmon purports to suggest that he is not Atzmon. However in a post at 00.04 of 23.10.07. he forgets his alias and both writes in the first person and signs off as Atzmon:"
  Yet, the comment is clearly entitled:
  "Gilad Atzmon - an open comment to JSF"
  and the opening lines are:
  "Gilad Atzmon’s open comment to JSF
  http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/10/gilad-atzmon-open-comment-to-jsf.html"
  If you click on the link, it takes you to the exact same text that appears underneath, and it is signed:
  "ATB
  Gilad Atzmon"
  So, rather than 'knuckles' forgetting his alias, it appears to be knuckles posting the text from Peace Palestine.
  In other words, it would appear that you are capable of making mistakes, or getting the wrong end of the stick, so to speak. At best your evidence is extremely circumstantial, and disputable.

  Now, you have DEMANDED that Indymedia do what you say - which is, in any case not even our usual practice, ie to delete the post from our server, so that it would be unreadable to anyone, as would the comments.
  However, in the full awareness that there is a high level of antagonism between you and Gilad, that this has been going for several years and that you have several times attempted to have him banned from places, I think that it would be a bad move on our part to automatically take your side on this matter. It is better in the long run, for all of us, if the kneejerk response to calls of anti-semitism is relaced with an informed decision.
  So, contrary to your claim that the collective has done nothing about your demand, there has been a debate about the issues that you have raised.
  You can read the archived discussion at:
  http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-October/thread.html#start
  and
  http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-November/thread.html#start
  You have already used the comments section to make your objections to the article known, and the list is an open one.
  You offer up 2 partial quotes from the article: 
  The first is this:
  "‘Within the Judaic worldview, history and ethics are often reduced into a banal single binary opposition principle
"
  What you don't quote is the qualification:
  "But let’s face it, it isn’t just the Israelis who personalise conflicts. Thanks to the Neocons and their tremendous current influence within the Anglo-American political realm, we are all subject to some oversimplification and personalisation of almost every Western conflict"
  In other words, it is all of us who are subject to this behaviour.
  The second is this:
  "the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago’."
  which you assert means that Atzmon blames the Jews for the Holocaust.
  However, if it is true that there was rampant anti-semitism in Europe 6 decades ago, then there is some truth in the claim that Jews were unpopular - to say that someone is a victim of racism does not automatically imply that it is their fault.
  It does appear that there are other ways of reading the text, and I have doubts about how objective a participant in a long running and mean-spirited dispute can be about their foes words.
  That is why it is not as simple as you would like to it to be. We cannot just take it as gospel that you are correct and the article is anti-semitic. It is your interpretation, and there are reasons to be cautious about it.
  We are still looking for consensus as how we should deal with claims of anti-semitism as a collective, and to be honest with you, it isn't going to be a quick process.
  BTW, It doesn't help if you think you have the right to be rude to Indy volunteers, and it was out of order to single out someone, who tried to assist you, for attack in an article on the newswire.
  If you wish to make a response to the collective, the right place to do it is through this list. However, it would be good if you could try and be civil in your posts, as incivility just tends to cloud issues.
  ATB
  ftp

tony greenstein <tonygreenstein at yahoo.com> wrote:    Re:  Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath
  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html?c=on#c183225 

  I have been forwarded the post below from Moshe Machover. Moshe is an absolutely solid 
Israeli Jewish anti-Zionist. I agree with every word. I have posted.  I really think the article should be taken down. 

  I've corresponded with Dave Parks who gave me this e-mail address.  He said that you usually 'hide' rather than erase articles but I would ask that you make an exception in this case.  The article justifies the holocaust by suggesting that it was the victims of the Nazis who brought the catastrophe on themselves because of their unpopularity.  This is not merely factually incorrect (Ian Kershaw's 'Hitler Myth' and 'Popular Dissent and Opinion in the Third Reich' show this is not so in Germany) but racist.  

  Atzmon himself is very close to a holocaust denial position and has described 'The Holocaust Wars' by Paul Eisen, a fulsome tribute to Ernst Zundel, an arden holocaust denier presently in a W German prison, as a 'great text'.  He has and does wax lyrical on international Jewish conspiracies.  He has described a number of Jewish anti-Zionists, including myself, in an article the Protocls of the Learned Elders of London, a clear reference to the infamous Czarist forgery.

  On most occasions accusations of anti-Semitism, especially by Zionists against those supporting the Palestinians are a form of defamation.  In this case they are unfortunately true.

  In solidarity

  Tony Greenstein

  PS:  If you look at the comments section, in which Atzmon poses under the name 'knuckles' he also makes various defamatory remarks:
  'The problem for many of us however, regarding Mr Greenstein's credibility is that he has a criminal record for stealing someone else's credit card, and using it to make various purchases of "toys". He also has a record of physical and voilent assaults on Jews.'

  and racist remarks:
  '"the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their racial brothers Tony Greastein, Mark Elf and Roland Rance were unpopular in the PSC AGM just a few months ago.' 

  However, maybe Greenstein can tell us whether or not Jews were involved with Bolshevism....or was it just a Nazi fantasy? If Greenstein doesn't know the answer, perhaps he will find the time to read the invaluable "Jewish Century" by the Harvard Prof Yuri Slezkine..... 

  knuckles: How exactly, Tony? By suggesting that Jews look into their endless tale of destruction and try to understand what is it about them that doesn't agree with the world? Atzmon suggests that this is the only way to save the Jews and stop others from wanting to harm them.  

  In most 'Knuckes' contributions like the above Atzmon purports to suggest that he is not Atzmon.  However in a post at 00.04 of 23.10.07. he forgets his alias and both writes in the first person and signs off as Atzmon:

  'Unlike Elf, Rosen and Greenstein who believe that they are quite a lot better than other Jews just because they use a slightly different recipe for their Gefilte fish, I believe in a severe form of critical self-reflection....
Unlike you righteous Jews, I would always start with myself, but somehow you are all intelligent enough to realise that my self-reflection exposes your Judeo-centric politics as a severe form of moronic self-loving. 

Last night we were headlining a massive concert for Palestine in Nottingham, the place was completely sold out, 2 weeks ago we did the same for MAP at the 606 in London. Again it sold out 2 weeks in advance. We are now becoming a household name and you seem to become nothing more than a bunch of racially-orientated assholes. 

I  wish you luck. Don’t ever stop celebrating your revolting symptoms in public. Please don’t stop fighting me, you are the best glimpse into Jewish self-loving and Zionism in particular. 

ATB 
Gilad Atzmon 
  knuckles 
 e-mail: knuckles at gmail.com 

---------------------------------

>> I don't know who to contact and you I know are more acquainted with these 
>> things.
>>
>> bw
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> M Machover wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:52:26 +0100
>> To: "List, JBIG":;
>> From: M Machover 
>> Subject: Gilad Atzmon
>> Hi,
>> I have come across a piece by Gilad Atzmon, "Saying NO to the Hunters
>> of Goliath".
>>
>>
>> The substantive core of this article -- basically a review of a book
>> by Yoav Limor and Ofer Shelah -- is about the 2006 Lebanon war and
>> Israel's debacle in it, and is quite unobjectionable. It repeats
>> things that have been said about the 2006 Lebanon War, and are by now
>> quite well known to those who have followed the Israeli press.
>> But GA, being what he is, packages it with his usual barely hidden
>> anti-semitism.
>> In his preamble he tells us that "Within the Judaic worldview,
>> history and ethics are often reduced into a banal single binary
>> opposition principle." This is a typical stereotypical generalization
>> -- as if there is such a thing as a "Judaic worldview", apparently
>> unchanging over centuries.
>> Further; "The tendency to personalise and concretise history is
>> rather common amongst Jews." Really?
>> But a real gem follows:
>> "... the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in 
>> the
>> Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago.
>> Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that 
>> blinded
>> the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of
>> the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the
>> first place. Would the Zionists understand the real meaning of their
>> Holocaust, the contemporary Israelite may be able to prevent the
>> destruction that may be awaiting them in the future."
>> Please read this carefully. He is comparing here the -- perfectly
>> justified -- present hatred for Israel in the Middle East, with the
>> "unpopularity"(!!!) from which European Jews suffered in the 1940s!
>> You, I and GA agree that if a destruction awaits Israel in the
>> future, it will be a consequence of its present actions. What he is
>> implying here is that the same is also true of the destruction of
>> European Jewry six decades ago. This is not Holocaust denial; it is
>> rather Holocaust justification! Or, at the very least, partly blaming
>> it on the victims.
>> Like Zionist propaganda, GA conflates anti-Zionism with Jew-baiting.
>> Zionist propaganda does it in order to de-legitimize anti-Zionism; GA
>> does it in order to legitimize his Judeophobia.
>> ATB, MM
>>
>>
>> Dave Parks wrote:
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> I don't understand this. I haven't received an e-mail from you it - so I
>> have no idea what this is about. Could you clarify?
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Dave Parks
>>
>>> I sent you an e-mail about a week ago asking why IndyMedia were hosting
>>> an anti-Semite called Gilad Atzmon
>>> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html The piece is a
>>> justification for the holocaust and I am surprised that indy media hosts
>>> it with its editorial guidelines etc. There are plenty of neo-Nazi sites
>>> which can put Atzmon's works up, he doesn't need to sully an anti-racist
>>> one.
>>>
>>> Because you don't seem to pick up your post I am sending this to UKLN.
>>
>>
>>
>>

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