[Imc-uk-features] tony's slurring

[mary rizzo]

I am not registered on this board, but hope you 
will print this since you seem to allow my name 
and a defamatory epithet to be on many titles, 
something I find highly irregular, but this is 
part of Tony's MO; as he does it every chance he 
gets! He tries to build up this cachet, so it's 
not the first time he's doing it, he has a 
particular agenda to fulfill, straight out of the ADL handbook, btw.

I haven't had time or energy to even follow or 
closely monitor the proceedings. I certainly have 
not bothered to read the verbose drivel of Tony 
through to the end, there are limits to 
everyone's patience, and I am quite used to his 
not so smooth, but oh so constant operations. At 
any rate, in addition to my own blog my insights 
on this "affaire" are on Islam on Line 
http://www.islamonline.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=55605, 
Axis of Logic, 
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_25456.shtml, 
Uruknet 
https://www.uruknet.info/?p=m38030&hd=&size=1&l=e, 
Middle East On Line 
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=23023, 
The People's Voice, 
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/11/08/p20912, 
on quite a few boards, aggregators and discussion 
groups, gosh, even on the Board Reader aggregator 
under Judaic http://boardreader.com/tp/Judaic.html
So, obviously, people might tend to believe it is 
an issue that activists must monitor.  It is also 
in Spanish on Rebelion, the major Spanish 
language alternative journal. Gatekeeping and 
censorship are always EXTREMELY serious issues, 
especially where Palestine is concerned. I want 
to thank FTP for being so willing to investigate, 
seek the truth and to stand firm against 
pressure. Whatever comes of it, his feeling 
"obligated" to abandon the group you have or not, 
I think he should know that many have seen the 
fair and very correct behaviour he has exhibited, 
in the face of much hostility. Welcome to the 
club, ftp. You will get used to this kind of 
abuse, but don't let it make you lose your sense of humour or of justice.

I would like to however briefly comment upon a few things.
1) I am called Anti-Semitic and so is my site. 
Tony knows me well. Yes, for years,  I was 
posting on JPUK, in the den of those who spend 
almost NO time talking about Palestinians, but 
just about themselves and who they would censor 
this week, One State, Al-Awda (which I doubt he 
is a member of), Alef, Tlaxcala, and the many 
articles I've had published in Uruknet, OnLine 
Journal, The People's Voice, Dissident Voice, 
Counterpunch, Axis of Logic, Tlaxcala, Amin, 
Middle East On Line, Palestine Chronicle, Al 
Jazeerah, Worker's World, Kibush, Bella Ciao, 
ISM, etc etc etc, just to mention a part of the 
English language ones. I'm the Palestine editor 
of Tlaxcala, as well as obviously, having a blog 
for three years where I am the editor. He can 
look in any of these places, spend about a year 
or two to search through every single item and I 
want him to find the words he claims I say that 
make me an Anti-Semite. Yes, he calls me this 
even though he knows he will be hard pressed 
indeed to find anything anti-Semitic I have EVER 
written, because it simply does not exist. He can 
look in at least eight years of archives in these 
or any places, (comments, whatever he can find, 
and he knows my two pseudonoms, thecutter and 
humdrumgirl, and I only have ever posted as 
myself, unsolicited, I have no gurus, I have a 
mind of my own and come to my own conclusions). 
He won't find it. Oh, he's not the only one who 
does this, Rance, Elf and I think about 4 or 5 
others who really DO collaborate together on 
this, keep on slinging the mud, unable to find 
anything that will prove I am the racist they 
claim, but they have to keep repeating their 
delirium, sooner or later, someone will feel the 
pressure and perhaps cave in. More to the point, 
while I have THEIR contributions that reek at 
times of Islamophobia and intolerance of the fact 
that Muslims in a predominantly Muslim part of 
the world link their faith to their politics, as 
is common and understandable. Yes, they presume 
that the Western class-oriented worldview is 
common patrimony and the "unmitigated truth" that 
they can then push down the throats of these 
Arabs who "mistakenly" partake in political 
elections with their parties that have a huge 
consensus. They have even insulted the 
intelligence of Palestinians for voting! For 
voting for Hamas and they insist Hamas are 
ignorant. Yes, that's on my blog, along with 
literally dozens of posts monitoring their 
censorship tactics and their disregard for 
Palestinians' intelligence. Here is one of many 
such posts: 
http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2006/03/self-righteous-jews-sans-frontieres.html, 
comments included. But much more to the point is 
where Tony calls Palestinian voters names. In 
this post: 
http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2005/10/jews-against-zionism-more-like-jews.html 
I have written about it. His comments (included 
still in the comments section) state:

"Since Mary Rizzo purports not to understand my 
comments, in a letter which was savagely edited 
by the New Statesman incidentally, I shall clarify.

My reference to 'illiterates' was to political 
illiterates, i.e. it wasn't a literal reference. 
Hamas is an organisation, sponsored originally by 
the Israeli State as a counterweight to the 
secular PLO. It became Frankenstein's monster, 
just as Bin Laden & co. were US proteges.

Hamas may be full of physicians for all I know, 
but politically they are a reflection of the 
Zionist, no more. The fact that they can come out 
with all sorts of anti-Semitic stuff, including 
support for the Protocols, demonstrates that. 
They are the best enemy Israel could have and it 
matters not a jot whether they have support in 
the Palestinian street. It is unfortunate that it 
is the corruption in Fateh which has led to a growth in support for Hamas.

Hamas is an Islamic group. Its charitable work 
depends on subventions from Kuwait, the Saudis 
and other reactionary governments. By definition 
it confessionalises Palestinian politics. 
Palestinians comprise all religions and none. 
Their tactic of suicide bombing has played 
straight into Sharon's hands and has weakened the 
Palestinians immeasurably. If Ms Rizzo wishes to 
act as a cheer leader to Hamas, then that's fine by me."
Tony Greenstein | 10.18.05 - 6:55 pm | #

----------
Yes. He really did write that! It's almost as if 
it came straight from the pen of Abe Foxman. And 
we wonder why the Palestinians in Gaza are so 
sick and tired of us. We are their worst possible 
enemy! We completely distort their history, we 
insult their electorate and people, misunderstand 
that they NEVER could have gotten elected without 
support from even NON-Muslims, many Christians I 
know voted for them and would do so yet again, 
and we generalise in the worst a-historical 
manner. Many comments follow, including Tony's 
rebutals containing the gems: with a few of my replies:


TG: No it means a lot. That the position of the 
Palestinians is that desperate and that insecure 
that they have turned to a group which can only 
offer a replacement of one form of oppression 
with another. Hamas is politically incapable of 
constructing any sort of political programme 
which can win support from abroad, let alone 
within the Israeli working class itself. Although 
Mary will not understand this, but the 
confessionalisation of Palestinian politics 
(remember there are Palestinian Christians, 
Atheists etc.) can only divide the Palestinians 
themselves along the very lines the Zionists desire.

me>>The fact that they are hugely popular in the 
Palestinian society means NOTHING to you? 
 
Speaking as the Secretary of Jews Against 
Zionism,
 Funny coming from a group who identifies themselves as Jews.

TG There is nothing ‘inherently’ more reactionary 
about Islam than Christianity, Judaism or indeed 
any other religion. But Mary seems to forget that 
I grew up as a Zionist and I first opposed the 
Jewish State. Quite why does Mary think I would 
oppose a Jewish State, which of course is a State 
for repressing those who are not Jews and giving 
privileges to those who are Jews, and then 
support an Islamic State? Why should I detest and 
oppose the mass murder of Palestinians by the 
Zionist State, their dispossession and reduction 
to guests (at best) in their own country and then 
give support to a movement which would willingly 
do the same to others if it had half the chance? 
Or maybe The Cutter supports the Islamic Republic 
of Iran which butchered Kurds and other 
minorities a plenty, before perpetuating a war 
with Iraq that cost over 1 million lives. 
Religion and State = Tyranny, be it an Israeli or 
indeed a Saudi tyranny. The difference between 
the Saudis & Iranians and the Zionists is that 
the former oppress their own people whilst the latter oppress the non-Jew.

me>>Is there an inherent problem with Islam? Is 
ther something about Islam that will harm Palestinians?

TG Respecting a choice is meaningless pap. Should 
I respect the German who voted for Hitler or the 
Israeli who voted for Sharon or the American who 
voted for Bush or, let us say, the Italian who 
voted for Berlusconi? I might pity, detest or 
even hate those who make such stupid choices, but 
respect never. I support the Palestinians because 
they are the direct victims of Zionist terror and 
ethnic cleansing, not because they have made 
terrible, if understandable, decisions.

Yes Hamas has been forced to confront its own 
idiocy. They have begun to realise that the only 
beneficiaries of the suicide bomb are Sharon & 
Peres. It’s a pity that the Palestinian people 
have had to pay the price. It is just a pity that 
Islamic Jihad has managed to learn nothing, as 
witness its suicide bomb this week. They killed 5 
Israelis but far more Palestinians with that 
bomb. But in their terms it is understandable. 
The world is divided into Islam and non-Islam. 
Therefore take out a few of the latter. They have 
no class politics, they don’t understand the 
meaning of reaching out to those on the other 
side, because they have nothing in common. For 
all their faults, the PFLP and DFLP understood 
very well that Palestinian socialists and 
communists had to make alliances with socialists, 
workers and others world-wide who oppose 
imperialism. Instead all Hamas can do is to 
glorify such absurd forgeries as the Protocols of 
the Elders of Zion, which her friends Israel 
Shamir/Eisen/Atzmon have taken such a shine too. 
Because that is the reality. Hamas’s ideology is 
a pale reflection of that of the Zionists. The 
Zionists say they wage their war in the name of 
religion, so Hamas puts up a mirror to the 
Zionist utterances, but does it in the name of 
Islam. Funnily enough the Zionists, being 
separatists, also did the same. The anti-Semites 
said Jews didn’t belong where they lived and the 
Zionists agreed that Jews didn’t belong in the 
Diasporah. All they insisted on was that Jews 
leave for Palestine, otherwise there was complete 
ideological agreement with the anti-Semites. 
Hamas too agree on the fundamentals with Zionism, 
they merely disagree on the outcome.

me>>You may one day wake up and have to realise 
that the only way you can pretend to help the 
Palestinian people is to respect their choices, 
to accept who they choose to represent them, even 
if they may not be Secular. 
 Hamas has evolved 
 
It is clear that Hamas is moving away from those 
abhorent practices, 
 You should do more 
research. Hamas has respected the ceasefires 
longer than any other group, including the 
Israeli government. This means nothing to you?

TG I am not a supporter of Fatah, which is a 
petit-bourgeois nationalist grouping. But at 
least their saving grace was that they were secular.

me>>The Palestinians want their society to 
advance, and that means that if the Fatah does 
not provide, or the international community, they go to who does this.

TG I don’t frequent your site and therefore I 
wouldn’t know what pets you keep. (this was in 
reference to an earlier post where one of the 
arch zionists praised Tony's first comment and I congratualted Tony.)

me >>Don't you feel happy having the site's Zionist pet as your cheerleader?

TG I was using a metaphor re the monster. Just as 
the US sponsored Islamic fundamentalists in 
Afghanistan and created Frankenstein’s monster. 
As I said, Hamas was essentially reborn in the 
Gaza Strip thanks to the sponsorship of Israel’s 
Shin Bet, (MY NOTE; THIS IS TOTAL BULLSHIT) which 
saw it as a counterweight to the secular 
Palestinian nationalist movement. Just as the 
Israeli State’s approach to its own Arab citizens 
has been to sponsor village elders and other 
feudal and religious patriarchs against nationalists and communists.


 >>TG: Hamas is an organisation, sponsored 
originally by the Israeli State as a 
counterweight to the secular PLO. It became 
Frankenstein's monster, just as Bin Laden & co. were US proteges.

 >>Reply: It isn't a monster it is genuinely 
Palestinian. If this is a monster for you, it 
shows you feel comfortable amongst Jews,

TG On the contrary, I think the idiots of Hamas 
(because they mouth anti-Semitism, they don’t 
understand it) may indeed have attracted the 
votes of Palestinians because of the corruption 
of Fatah and their ability to attract enough 
funds to run social programmes, but I don’t for 
one minute believe that ideologically or 
politically most Palestinians are filled with the 
same racist nonsense as most Zionists. If I hated 
the Palestinians I wouldn’t be an anti-Zionist. 
But sometimes your best friend is someone who 
tells you the truth, rather than flatter you like 
Mary Rizzo. And actually Mary, I don’t recollect 
that Palestinians smell any different to any other group of people.

 >>TG: Hamas may be full of physicians for all I 
know, but politically they are a reflection of 
the Zionist, no more. The fact that they can come 
out with all sorts of anti-Semitic stuff, 
including support for the Protocols, demonstrates that.

 >>Reply: This man just hates everything that smells Palestinian.

TG I’m afraid that I don’t have your experience, 
Mary, of climbing into the gutter. Nor do I wish to have it!
******

I wouldn't waste too much of anyone's time here 
going into it, my blog has much documentation of 
it, and in the coming days, more will be printed. 
Let me just add one more interesting element: 
while Tony CLAIMS to be a boycott promoter, I 
recently was actually faced with an oh so real 
dilemma where I had to make a choice. An Israeli 
(anarchist??) filmmaker was promoting his work in 
Italy, and wanted media promotion. I was sent a 
package by the producer (an Israeli company, all 
the names were Israelis, anyway) where I would 
get press credentials, I would have a paid stay 
in the director's hotel and would be expected to 
interview and promote the film in return. I was 
solicited by them, and offered the "opportunity" 
to promote an Israeli cultural product that would 
be distributed in Europe, very much depending on 
word of mouth, good reviews, etc. I didn't know 
what to do, so I asked my Palestinian friends, 
all said, "boycott it". At the same time, I 
inquired at Alef, where there are many others, to 
get some views so that I could make my own 
decision. Tony, yes, Tony the Boycotter told me 
it was totally FINE to promote the film, (and I 
did not mention that it was entirely 
Israeli-financed) since the viewpoint of the film 
was acceptable. I don't know about you other 
guys, but I can't know what the content or 
viewpoint of a film is until I see it, it doesn't 
work the other way around. So, I HAD to make a 
decision first, not afterward, because space-time 
constrictions of physics say that time goes in 
one direction, not two. So, who is inconsistent? 
I believe it is Tony. Although his blindspots are 
pretty gigantic, and all of them concern his own 
consistencies or lack thereof. Tony is, in other 
words, a very untrustworthy advisor who despises 
and does not respect Palestinians, and who can't 
understand others who respect Palestinians and 
want to be of service to them, cost what it may.

The fact that he believes he is permitted to 
libel me as Anti-Semitic due to his premise that 
since he thinks Atzmon is AS, and I support 
Atzmon and endorse his views, know he is not 
racist against any ethnic or religious group, and 
in fact, he has a respect and an understanding 
for religious people that I've learned to nurture 
thanks to my friendship with him and acceptance 
of this "reality" as part of many people's lives, 
though not my own, that makes ME an Anti-Semite!

Tony has never quite "gotten it" that we are 
talking about supremacist ideology where one 
group pretends it "knows what's best" for 
everyone else, anywhere and under any conditions, 
and they waste no time in promulgating their 
"truth", which is an ideology that has 
exclusionism as its foundation. This is the 
"Jewishness" and "Chosenness" referred to by 
Atzmon. It is present in anyone, almost all 
Fundamentalist Zionist Christians, who need to 
refer to this paradigm in order to guarantee 
their own personal need for salvation ideology - 
as descendents of the Chosen people, and 
therefore candidates for salvation. It's a 
MENTALITY, and many atrocious things have come 
from it, just like many atrocious things have 
come from any kind of fundamentalist thinking 
where the "other" is persecuted in the name of an idea or belief.

Tony feels legitimated to smear me as well for 
his view that I have endorsed Shamir. Well, he 
leaves out a lot of material, and it's certainly 
not that interesting for me to go into it here, 
but if one does the research, they will find that 
while Shamir supports and endorses ME in public, 
I have not in public or in private done this. I 
have simply said I will not condemn him in a 
kangaroo court! My views on Shamir are quite 
complex and articulated, and if Greenstein had a 
bit of a brain, he'd find them for himself. 
Actually, Shamir's position is very different 
from mine, I am not religiously oriented, so I 
simply don't even delve into his insights that 
much. But, it is Greenstein that grants Shamir 
lots of relevancy. Shamir and I have had our 
disputes, but also the good taste to do it all in 
private, when possible, because we don't believe 
it is of interest to the general public. If 
Greenstein knew any of the details, he should 
come out with them, because I am laughing my ass 
off at how little he knows of the "relationship" 
between Shamir's activism and mine. They are 
running on different rails, and rarely do they 
meet. Whereas, Tony is always looking to run 
headlong into me or Gilad, as if this is his 
life's mission. It's pretty comical, to be 
honest. I will say one of the reasons why:

Greenstein and Elf and others claim they don't 
read my "Anti-Semitic site", but they sure know 
all that goes on there. I smell Casper the 
unfriendly ghost in the area. I don't know how 
somebody can not read something, but know the 
content and believe they can comment on it and pass judgment.

2) Tony and Co habitually use lists to push their 
agendas. It is common, and they use a very 
abusive technique to do it. "You do what I say or 
you get smeared too".  I leave it up to Indymedia 
(I wouldn't have it any other way) for them to 
attempt to discuss, use their own judgement and 
decide to act according to the content of the 
material they are asked to review, and not to 
pressure and threats. So many of us are indeed 
used to it, and I will go further: rarely does 
the lobbying have the desired effect. On the 
contrary, I get emails from the editors of the 
above-mentioned sites and journals (reacting to 
the pressure and to the content of my 
"reportages") and they can't believe that piling 
one defeat after another, these people persist 
with their innacuracies, allusions, smears, 
threats, libel and illusions, as if they really 
don't yet understand that they are not just wrong 
and silly, but they are VERY wrong and ideed, 
ridiculous. The support of Atzmon, of me, of 
those who end up on the other end of Tony's 
stick, is growing and growing. It is not because 
people are becoming racist, it is because people 
can't tolerate anymore that cries AGAINST racism 
and exclusivist ideologial thought are undergoing 
pressure to have them silenced.

Anyway, Indymedia should make an autonomous 
decision. If they take Greenstein's intolerable 
slur at face value, or if they decide to 
investigate for themselves. Peacepalestine will 
continue to monitor it, as my readers have grown 
accustomed to, and as my morals dictate.
This is MUCH longer than I wanted it to be, but I 
could really go on if time permitted. There is NO shortage of material.
mary rizzo http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com  
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