[Imc-uk-features] Anti-Semitism & free speech etc.

[tony greenstein]

Well Mick I’m not overjoyed either! I agree that the personal can be, not automatically is, political. So being told that the collective is discussing a matter when they are really referring it back to the person who wrote the comments in question might be deemed err personal or is it political?
   
  I didn’t browse the archives so much as go to the November archives, to which ftp gave me the url, which contained a post going back to those archives. There’s no way I could have found them otherwise!
   
  I am not doubting that doing indymedia admin is thankless. I do the admin at an unemployed centre so I’m aware of what you mean. But that also means that people do have to face up to their responsibilities. Indymedia is a resource, as it says, for grassroots struggles etc. as it proudly boasts on the home page. Articles which are racist are, by definition, espousing the idea that some people are inherently better or more deserving than others. And now one of the mods. links his defence of Atzmon to Israel Shamir, who even Mary Rizzo and Atzmon will no longer publicly defend, an out and out holocaust denier and fascist who works on an ongoing basis with the KKK’s David Duke, Mahler of the German NPD and praises Nick Griffin.
   
  And he threatens to block any proposal to hide the article in question. The first question surely is, since presumably there is a blocking rule, ensuring that it takes second place when an issue of principle such as anti-racism or anti-fascism is at stake. Who authorised the original article? Opinion pieces aren’t usually put up. I haven’t been asked to write an article or even do a reply to Atzmon. Why is he privileged? 
   
  The least Indymedia owes to its wider audience is a democratic structure internally and that means one vote per person, not one person able to outvote (or block) all others.
   
  Re Ilyan, whom I’ve replied to offlist. No it’s not true that ‘It seems Greenstein is a socialist who wants censorship so that wrong ideas cannot be answered. A real Anarchist would perhaps call that socialist fascism.’ Clearly there are different varieties of anarchist. When I was on the executive of Anti-Fascist Action the anarchists we worked with were signed up to something called ‘No Platform’. That meant we denied the right of fascists to organise because our experience was that they would use that right to build their strength in order to attack others. This free speech thing is something that liberals come out with a lot, but it always applies to the right. Free speech for workers, demonstrators etc. has always been met with the forces of the state. 
   
  What is not true is the usual reductio absurdum that I want censorship of things I disagree with. Yes I’m a socialist and I’m happy to a thousand flowers to bloom, but not poisonous weeds like Atzmon and Shamir.. Racism and fascism are different. It would appear that most if not all the collective has no experience of the battles of the 1970s and 1980s against fascist groups and their defenders in the police and state. The Mail and co. accused us at Lewisham and elsewhere of opposing ‘free speech’ but the reality was that we were defending the right to speak and live for Black and minority groups. Presumably Ilyan would have been in the forefront of defending the right of the NF to march in Lewisham, Wood Green and where I live in Brighton?
   
  It is unfortunate that anarchism, or those who profess to be its adherents, have little memory of struggles of the past. 
   
  But at the end of the day it is your decision as to whether or not Indymedia will be a forum for anti-Semitic nuts like Atzmon with his weird conspiracy theories or whether you have the courage to take a clear decision. If you decide to avoid the question then you will also have made a decision by default and Indymedia will be known as a place where anti-Jewish conspiracy theories are welcome.
   
  And just one final point. I’m not going to reply to the ramblings of Mary Rizzo, though I would certainly stand by my opposition to suicide bombings in Israel, even if that means criticising Hamas. 
   
  The reason why I, and others who are anti-Zionist, oppose Indymedia being a forum for anti-Semitic nonsense is not that it will affect Jews in Britain or elsewhere. It won’t. Anti-Semitism is a marginal prejudice, not a form of state racism. My reason for opposing it is that there is nothing that the supporters of the Israeli state would like more than to be able to tar their opponents with the accusation of anti-Semitism. Without anti-Semitism there would have been no Zionism. And if anti-Semitism did grow again, then the Palestinians would be the first to suffer as Israel received a new influx of potential settlers. 
   
  As the German social democratic leader, Augusto Bebel remarked, anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools. But he could also have meant the anarchism of fools too.
   
  Tony Greenstein
   
  >>hi there all, Tony, I'm not really happy with the way this is going. The personal is political and I'm really not comfortable with the way you're acting here. It just seems a bit too full on. I don't think it's appropriate to browse the archives of the imc-uk-features list and send emails tddddddo people personally. However as I'm sure you have got experience of, If you keep kicking the anthill then it will eventually wake up the sleepy ones in there and they'll come out and wonder what is going on. And although I'm not happy about the way you are doing it, I can say after reading through the articles that I think Atzmon's post should be hidden. I've written this thought to be fed into the imc-uk-features list. It's not really a direct reply to you Tony, so please don't email me personally, I think it's probably best if you keep co-respondence to the indymedia lists to avoid annoying people. I reckon that it's a very difficult and often thankless task doing the
 indymedia administration. As someone that doesn't spend a lot of time doing it, I would like to thank those that do. cya mick 
   
  >>I thought there was too much bullshit on this list - (now even calling 
  ftp a racist) so I struck out this list when I replied to all who had 
  Greenstein's first email.
  It seems Greenstein is a socialist who wants censorship so that wrong 
  ideas cannot be answered. A real Anarchist would perhaps call that 
  socialist fascism. 
  This is what I sent:
  > Maurice, a Jew, in about 1946 was very anxious that everyone 
  > understood that to be an anti-semite was to hate both Jews and Arabs. 
  > He considered that understanding to be the key to the long term 
  > survival of the Israel that was then being born. Few agreed with him 
  > and we now have to think how to recover from a disaster.
  >
  > It seems that the only way to get Palestinians and Israelis to live 
  > peacefully together in their land will be for there to be a great 
  > anti-semitic alliance that intends to eradicate both lots, and 
  > succeeds in reducing their combined populations to what that land can 
  > easily support, and can only be stopped from total success by Jews and 
  > Israelis (mistake there, intent is Jews and Arabs) combining their 
  > forces in mutual defence.. The Swiss did it to end religious wars.
  >
  > Both lots are religious ... what card can God play to get the two 
  > 'Nations' living amicably on that land in a State of Anarchy? Is 
  > Atzmon a God helper or another idiot giving God a Migraine by praying?
  >
  > I should not ask questions, my inbox is quite full enough.
  Can anyone name the girl in the Baltic States who was asked to speak at 
  a Zionist meeting in support of the Balfour Declaration, agreed, and 
  then read it, only to find that she disagreed with it, so did not speak. 
  She later went to South Africa and was very active politically 
  there. Greenstein should read what she said about Zionism.
   
  385457 which I commented yesterday has been hidden, and reposted, and 
  now has four new comments. If people want to demonstrate their 
  idiocy, it should not be prevented. It seems to me that the right thing 
  to do is move the comments from the repost to the old hidden post, and 
  delete the repost. Tripe and spam are two good reasons for requiring 
  posters to register. Or have a section called Tripe and Spam to put 
  everything you want to hide into without hiding it. 
  Ilyan

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