[Imc-uk-features] Atzmon has it wrong way round (my twopennies worth on debate)

[Chris]

Hi

On Wed 14-Nov-2007 at 02:45:38AM +0000,
barry.kade at aktivix.org wrote:
> 
> Atzmon says the USA has become a colony/servant of
> Israel. This is the wrong way round!

Of course, no IMC activists have been arguing that he
doesn't have it the wrong way around.

> Western imperialism has always supported Israel only
> because Israel serves the US/UK imperial interests.
> 
> Its not down to a 'Jewish Lobby' or a 'world Zionist
> conspiracy'!
> 
> Thus the ruling class American WASP Anti-Semites have
> long supported Israel because it serves their interests
> to do so.

Sure, perhaps you missed my take on this issue from 11
days ago?

  http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-November/1103-yn.html

> Only the American/British white supremacist far right
> crazies say it is the other way around. They try and
> hijack anti-war sentiment with shit like 'no more
> American/British lives for Israeli wars'.

This is where I disagree. It is clearly not *only* the
American/British white supremacist far right crazies -- it
is some people on the anti-capitalist left, like for
example James Petras:

- http://petras.lahaine.org/ 

- The Pro-Israel Lobby and US Middle East Policy: The
  Score Card for 2007
  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/370638.html

> But we know these are wars for British and American
> power! Its not as if without 'Jewish influence' the
> USA/UK would cease to be aggressive imperialists! US/UK
> do it to maintain their global capitalist power!

Sure.

> As the Israeli paper Ha'aretz, said way back in 1951
> 
>   "Israel is to become the watchdog. There is no fear
>   that Israel will undertake any aggressive Policy
>   towards the Arab states when this would explicitly
>   contradict the wishes of the US and Britain. But if
>   for any reasons the Western powers should sometimes
>   prefer to close their eyes, Israel could be relied
>   upon to punish one or several neighbouring states
>   whose discourtesy to the West went beyond the bounds
>   of the permissible."

Yes, that's a nice summury.

> Doh! do some people have some really dodgy and confused
> politics on IMC these days, or what?

Well it's not just on Indymedia is it? It's a problem with
the broader anti-capitalist left which is reflected on
Indymedia.

The question is how to deal with it:

- Should we regard leftists who think that Israel is
  setting US policy in the Middle East in the same manner
  as "American/British white supremacist far right
  crazies" and No Platform them -- ban them from posting
  and hide all their articles?

  If we change our current practice and start doing this 
  then to be consistent should we also hide articles like
  this one?

  - Petras and Finkelstein: "The Lobby": AIPAC and US
    Foreign Policy
    http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/04/368300.html

  Where Norman Finkelstein, does a good job of defeating
  Jame Petras in debate on this very issue -- if I had to
  take sides in this debate I wouldn't hesitate to take
  Finkelstein's.

- Or should we allow articles which are not racist, from
  anti-racists and anti-capitalists who we think have it
  *wrong* on the US/Israel relationship and instead allow
  their views to be countered via comments etc -- this is
  what I think we have been doing till now.

Chris

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