[Imc-uk-features] please remove this anti-Semitic article

Tue Oct 30 02:16:58 PDT 2007

hi

i've had a look at this briefly and it seems like the complaint against
this post is more about the writers (Gilad Atzmon's) reputation than the
post's content. I am worried that we could begin censoring people becuse
of who they are rather than what they write...

saying that I think some of Atzmon's views are misgided and sometimes
offensive

I'd welcom discussion...

> Hiya,
>
> I'm forwarding this from the imc-uk-contact list for people to have a
> look at.
>
> Cheers, Wietse
>
> ------------------->
>
> tony greenstein wrote:
>> I sent you the post below 6 days ago.  I have not yet received a reply
>> and the article is still up.
>>
>>   I would be grateful if you could respond, assuming of course that
>> anyone is reading the posts to this address.
>>
>>   Tony Greenstein
>>
>>
>> tony greenstein <tonygreenstein at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>   Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:19:30 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: tony greenstein <tonygreenstein at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html?c=on#c183225
>> To: imc-uk-contact at lists.indymedia.org
>> CC: dave parks <davep at exeterleft.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>>   Re:  Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath
>>   http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html?c=on#c183225
>>
>>   I have been forwarded the post below from Moshe Machover. Moshe is an
>> absolutely solid
>> Israeli Jewish anti-Zionist. I agree with every word. I have posted.  I
>> really think the article should be taken down.
>>
>>   I've corresponded with Dave Parks who gave me this e-mail address.  He
>> said that you usually 'hide' rather than erase articles but I would
>> ask that you make an exception in this case.  The article justifies
>> the holocaust by suggesting that it was the victims of the Nazis who
>> brought the catastrophe on themselves because of their unpopularity.
>> This is not merely factually incorrect (Ian Kershaw's 'Hitler Myth'
>> and 'Popular Dissent and Opinion in the Third Reich' show this is not
>> so in Germany) but racist.
>>
>>   Atzmon himself is very close to a holocaust denial position and has
>> described 'The Holocaust Wars' by Paul Eisen, a fulsome tribute to
>> Ernst Zundel, an arden holocaust denier presently in a W German
>> prison, as a 'great text'.  He has and does wax lyrical on
>> international Jewish conspiracies.  He has described a number of
>> Jewish anti-Zionists, including myself, in an article the Protocls of
>> the Learned Elders of London, a clear reference to the infamous
>> Czarist forgery.
>>
>>   On most occasions accusations of anti-Semitism, especially by Zionists
>> against those supporting the Palestinians are a form of defamation.
>> In this case they are unfortunately true.
>>
>>   In solidarity
>>
>>   Tony Greenstein
>>
>>   PS:  If you look at the comments section, in which Atzmon poses under
>> the name 'knuckles' he also makes various defamatory remarks:
>>   'The problem for many of us however, regarding Mr Greenstein's
>> credibility is that he has a criminal record for stealing someone
>> else's credit card, and using it to make various purchases of "toys".
>> He also has a record of physical and voilent assaults on Jews.'
>>
>>   and racist remarks:
>>   '"the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in
>> the Middle East as their racial brothers Tony Greastein, Mark Elf and
>> Roland Rance were unpopular in the PSC AGM just a few months ago.'
>>
>>   However, maybe Greenstein can tell us whether or not Jews were
>> involved with Bolshevism....or was it just a Nazi fantasy? If
>> Greenstein doesn't know the answer, perhaps he will find the time to
>> read the invaluable "Jewish Century" by the Harvard Prof Yuri
>> Slezkine.....
>>
>>   knuckles: How exactly, Tony? By suggesting that Jews look into their
>> endless tale of destruction and try to understand what is it about
>> them that doesn't agree with the world? Atzmon suggests that this is
>> the only way to save the Jews and stop others from wanting to harm
>> them.
>>
>>   In most 'Knuckes' contributions like the above Atzmon purports to
>> suggest that he is not Atzmon.  However in a post at 00.04 of
>> 23.10.07. he forgets his alias and both writes in the first person and
>> signs off as Atzmon:
>>
>>   'Unlike Elf, Rosen and Greenstein who believe that they are quite a
>> lot better than other Jews just because they use a slightly different
>> recipe for their Gefilte fish, I believe in a severe form of critical
>> self-reflection....
>> Unlike you righteous Jews, I would always start with myself, but somehow
>> you are all intelligent enough to realise that my self-reflection
>> exposes your Judeo-centric politics as a severe form of moronic
>> self-loving.
>>
>> Last night we were headlining a massive concert for Palestine in
>> Nottingham, the place was completely sold out, 2 weeks ago we did the
>> same for MAP at the 606 in London. Again it sold out 2 weeks in advance.
>> We are now becoming a household name and you seem to become nothing more
>> than a bunch of racially-orientated assholes.
>>
>> I  wish you luck. Don’t ever stop celebrating your revolting symptoms in
>> public. Please don’t stop fighting me, you are the best glimpse into
>> Jewish self-loving and Zionism in particular.
>>
>> ATB
>> Gilad Atzmon
>>   knuckles
>>  e-mail: knuckles at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>>> I don't know who to contact and you I know are more acquainted with
>>>> these
>>>> things.
>>>>
>>>> bw
>>>>
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> M Machover wrote:
>>>> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:52:26 +0100
>>>> To: "List, JBIG":;
>>>> From: M Machover
>>>> Subject: Gilad Atzmon
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I have come across a piece by Gilad Atzmon, "Saying NO to the Hunters
>>>> of Goliath".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The substantive core of this article -- basically a review of a book
>>>> by Yoav Limor and Ofer Shelah -- is about the 2006 Lebanon war and
>>>> Israel's debacle in it, and is quite unobjectionable. It repeats
>>>> things that have been said about the 2006 Lebanon War, and are by now
>>>> quite well known to those who have followed the Israeli press.
>>>> But GA, being what he is, packages it with his usual barely hidden
>>>> anti-semitism.
>>>> In his preamble he tells us that "Within the Judaic worldview,
>>>> history and ethics are often reduced into a banal single binary
>>>> opposition principle." This is a typical stereotypical generalization
>>>> -- as if there is such a thing as a "Judaic worldview", apparently
>>>> unchanging over centuries.
>>>> Further; "The tendency to personalise and concretise history is
>>>> rather common amongst Jews." Really?
>>>> But a real gem follows:
>>>> "... the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular
>>>> in
>>>> the
>>>> Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago.
>>>> Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that
>>>> blinded
>>>> the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning
>>>> of
>>>> the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in
>>>> the
>>>> first place. Would the Zionists understand the real meaning of their
>>>> Holocaust, the contemporary Israelite may be able to prevent the
>>>> destruction that may be awaiting them in the future."
>>>> Please read this carefully. He is comparing here the -- perfectly
>>>> justified -- present hatred for Israel in the Middle East, with the
>>>> "unpopularity"(!!!) from which European Jews suffered in the 1940s!
>>>> You, I and GA agree that if a destruction awaits Israel in the
>>>> future, it will be a consequence of its present actions. What he is
>>>> implying here is that the same is also true of the destruction of
>>>> European Jewry six decades ago. This is not Holocaust denial; it is
>>>> rather Holocaust justification! Or, at the very least, partly blaming
>>>> it on the victims.
>>>> Like Zionist propaganda, GA conflates anti-Zionism with Jew-baiting.
>>>> Zionist propaganda does it in order to de-legitimize anti-Zionism; GA
>>>> does it in order to legitimize his Judeophobia.
>>>> ATB, MM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave Parks wrote:
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand this. I haven't received an e-mail from you it - so
>>>> I
>>>> have no idea what this is about. Could you clarify?
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> Dave Parks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I sent you an e-mail about a week ago asking why IndyMedia were
>>>>> hosting
>>>>> an anti-Semite called Gilad Atzmon
>>>>> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html The piece is a
>>>>> justification for the holocaust and I am surprised that indy media
>>>>> hosts
>>>>> it with its editorial guidelines etc. There are plenty of neo-Nazi
>>>>> sites
>>>>> which can put Atzmon's works up, he doesn't need to sully an
>>>>> anti-racist
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because you don't seem to pick up your post I am sending this to
>>>>> UKLN.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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