[Imc-uk-process] whats going on with moderation?

[martin durruti]

there are indeed similarities with EDL .. i have seen these people at Gaza
and other demos. They argue Israel is Nazi and should be wiped off the face
of the earth. Many of them have politics that is quasi fascist. they carry
placards and banners showing jews with hooked noses and bloody hands holding
dead babies of the left only the AWL oppose them as the racists they are.
Indymedia report their activities uncritically and anyone who is unorthodox
is shouted down and accused of zionism. and that is not mythical but reality


But re your mythical PDL undoubtedly they must be opposed ideologically as
must the EDL. But by definition if all their statements state they are anti-
anti semitism then we must work from there, if they burn the hamas flag we
must welcome that, if they say they are against zionist terrrorism we must
support that as we surely ARE opposed to zionist terrorism?

Btw EDL has not yet attempted a demo in a muslim area though. i believe they
have not directly supported the SIOE demos. I also read several of their
members who did attend the Harrow demos were invited and went into the
mosque with the iman for discussions. i will follow up this

You have got totally hung up on this and seem obsessed with teh idea that
anyone who thinks differrently from you does not have the same objectives.
It is absolutely true that what the EDL is doing is winding up racism and
division .. but on paper that is not what they manifesto states.

IF we wish to destroy them then we have to start at the beginning. Look at
what they say and then take it apart. As i said over and over the knee jerk
reaction is to jump straight in with no understanding. It has failed as has
the anti BNP campaign. You analysis before you attack so when you attack you
attack the right place.

Indymedia could be playing a role in this debate. Instead you have silenced
it. Tragic

and yet again i can not believe you find it of NO use to you that i am on
the ED forums. You profess to be interested but actually you are not. You
have made you mind up on the basis of a few videos and not real research

D02

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Mike D <mike-d at riseup.net> wrote:

> Hi Martin,
>
> I re-read what I wrote today and I have thought of a relevant
> fictional analogy I would like to share with you:-
>
> The "Palestinian Defence League" (PDL) are a militantly anti-Zionist
> street movement of mainly young Asian men. There are also a few
> white men who come along, some who even claim to be Jewish but say
> they are fervently anti-Zionist. They have organised many protests
> in towns and cities where high concentrations of Jews live. In
> particular they have targeted the streets Golders Green in London, a
> popular hang out for many Jews, and also the New West End Synagogue
> which has a strongly pro-Zionist stance. They march through the
> streets with Kefiyehs covering their faces and they shout "Jewish
> Terrorists of our streets!", one young man was recorded on video
> being bundled into a bus by the police singing "I hate Yids more
> than you!". On their website they have expressed anger at 'how the
> British state has capitulated to Jewish extremism' describing what
> they say as 'political correctness gone too far'. Last week they
> featured on the Newsnight programme where they met a reporter in a
> disused warehouse. They state they are not anti-semitic, and set
> fire to a Hamas flag to make their point. Their protests have been
> met across the country by angry mobs of Jewish people, many
> belonging to the Zionist Federation who want to fight what they
> describe as "crypto-islamofascism" and running street battles have
> occurred in 3 cities now. They have been widely criticised for
> targeting Jews rather than zionists, and their claims of not being
> antisemitic have been condemned as "transparent". There are concerns
> that this group are gaining a grip on the minds of young,
> impressionable and disillusioned Muslim youths.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> >> 1) half agree but would say that is not technically racism at all
> >> as
> >> Islam is a religion not a race, though it would clearly be nasty
> >> bigotry, BUT on paper EDL does NOT hate muslims and makes this
> >> quiet
> >> clear. it says explicitly it is against sharia being implemented,
> >> choudary etc etc
> >
> > Quote from:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
> >
> > "Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences
> > between different groups of people, although anyone may be
> > discriminated against on an ethnic or cultural basis, independently
> > of
> > their somatic differences. According to the United Nations
> > conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial
> > discrimination and ethnic discrimination."
> >
> > To describe being a Muslim as only belonging to a religion is too
> > simplistic, in the same way that describing someone as being Jewish
> > in
> > the same terms would be. There is a cultural aspect to this, and as
> > such Asian Muslims are an ethnic group just as Jews are. Singling
> > out
> > and disliking an ethnic group because of their culture or religion
> > is
> > racism on paper too as you will see from the Wikipedia entry above.
> > I
> > read your comment about the Notts Asian lad who has rejected Islam,
> > watches the football, probably eats fish and chips on the way home,
> > and supports the EDL. The same applies here, he has effectively
> > rejected his culture and ethnicity and joined a different one.
> > Racism
> > is not just about skin colour, it is about identity too and this can
> > be transient.
> >
> > On the streets they aren't just protesting against sharia law, they
> > are shouting racist abuse at Muslims who they know nothing about and
> > in all likelihood do not support sharia law (since most don't), and
> > parading the Israeli flag in front of them knowing full well they
> > are
> > angry at the oppression of Palestinian people. I think it is too
> > charitable to define this as "reactionary" but "not racist" for the
> > reasons I stated above, especially since the leadership make no
> > effort
> > to distance themselves from or root out the many supporters who do
> > shout racist abuse. Actions speak louder than words. We have to
> > apply
> > the same standard to them as we would to ourselves, if any of us
> > associated with racists or anti-Semites for political purposes we
> > would rightly be classed as racists.
> >
> > I think it would be helpful if rather than defining them as "not
> > racist" you explore to a finer level of granularity exactly where
> > their prejudices lie, i.e. that there is an ethnic and cultural
> > element to this racism and not a somatic one. Also I think it would
> > be
> > helpful to be clear about your definition of the EDL, i.e. make it
> > explicit if you are referring to the EDL leadership and not the EDL
> > as
> > a 'mass' on a protest.
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 21 Dec 2009, at 23:40, martin durruti wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Insulting and abusive? (possibly but debatable, frustrated more
> >> like
> >> at being patronised by people who clearly are out of their depth
> >> here)  ....   or censorship .. which is worse? there is simply no
> >> contest in that for a real anarchist is there? the 'rules' on
> >> inaccuracy are not designed to ban opinion that is debatable as
> >> this
> >> clearly is. That rule is designed to stop people publishing out
> >> and
> >> out lies and disinformation.
> >>
> >> ok your 7 questions ( i have added numbers to them )
> >>
> >> 1) half agree but would say that is not technically racism at all
> >> as
> >> Islam is a religion not a race, though it would clearly be nasty
> >> bigotry, BUT on paper EDL does NOT hate muslims and makes this
> >> quiet
> >> clear. it says explicitly it is against sharia being implemented,
> >> choudary etc etc
> >> 2) yes of course but see above
> >> 3) no, it is not, you have entirely missed the point .. they are
> >> NOT
> >> nazis like almost everyone in this country is NOT a nazi .. but
> >> they
> >> can still be reactionary
> >> 4) yes of course .. and many of the EDL probably are racist .. but
> >> again as an organisation you can NOT say that definitively
> >> 5) the fight was not between EDL and NF but EDL and neo nazis and
> >> was NOT to do with ffotball but wind ups about liking jews and
> >> mixed
> >> race. again you are ill informed ( again i ask who is on their
> >> forums me or you? )
> >> 6) ys it may appear disengenuous but how else can you define a
> >> group, STWC is an SWP front yet it m pulled a million onto a demo.
> >> You would not define STWC ( trots) by the massive dicersity on
> >> that
> >> demo. YOu can ONLY define a group by it's words. YES you can then
> >> point out till the cows come home the ocntradiction between what
> >> happens on the demos .. and IF you did that we would be in full
> >> agreement. Look we HAVE to be accurate in what we say and laziness
> >> is self defeating.
> >> 7) good point. but when you look at their forums and what people
> >> are
> >> saying on there it is pretty much the same .. and what i have been
> >> saying all along that as a group on paper in print they are not
> >> racist and not fascist
> >>
> >> again i have to say you are not on EDL forums are you?? ( is any
> >> of
> >> the mod list??)  they currently have a long thread entitled Abdul.
> >> It is about a guy from Glasgow who is an ex Muslim pakistani who
> >> attended the Notts demo. He is an out and out Hun and goes to
> >> every
> >> home and away game (apparrently) and was drapped in the Union Jack
> >> all day in Notts. he appears to be a nasty and unpleasant loyalist
> >> and they love him on EDL and the only two people who thought that
> >> him being in Notts wasn't a big deal on the thread were told to
> >> fuck
> >> off back to stormfront etc
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB-QJUVQD9U
> >>
> >> it seems bizarre in the extreme that you continue to lecture/
> >> patronise me while clearly ignorent of this group. does it not
> >> seem
> >> bloody obvious i know a fuck of a lot about what i am talking
> >> about?
> >> does it not make you wonder why i am arguing this so much? or why
> >> bone has himself reprinted this banned article? or that fashwatch
> >> have now joined the groups who feel people have got their
> >> understanding and tactics wrong? sorry but you made a mistake is
> >> all. and it would be better for all if you learnt from it. YES
> >> this
> >> must come across patronising but as i said before i only see two
> >> people on here who seem to have any in depth knowledge, me and
> >> malatesta, and btw we disagree but i would never ban his
> >> suggestions
> >> even though s/he calls for state bans
> >>
> >> durruti02
> >>
> >> btw i have some stuff from wigan mike from the edl forum i will
> >> put
> >> on the indy  tomorrow .. he was not a mod and appears to have left
> >> as he has not posted for nearly two weeks ..
> >>
> >> and below is some typical EDL forum stuff i downloaded a while
> >> back,
> >> following Griffin accusing spanish EDL supportters of attacking
> >> his
> >> allies in Spain .. to me road rage at the bottom is typical of EDL
> >> forum posters though it is a mixed bag
> >>
> >> charlie       Nov 24 2009, 09:23 AM Post #5
> >>
> >>
> >> Posts:
> >> 1,538
> >> Group:
> >> Members
> >> Member
> >> #2,424
> >> Joined:
> >> Sep 16, 2009
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Adder
> >> Nov 24 2009, 09:05 AM
> >> We're branching into Europe now then?
> >> Seriously though, I haven't got a clue what Nick Griffins banging
> >> on
> >> about here...and I'm a supporter of Griffin.
> >> I tell you what Griffen on about like expat says there a agenda .
> >> And his agenda is for his followers like you Adder is to disrupt
> >> the
> >> progress and growth of the E.D.L will not surprise me if we wont
> >> see
> >> the Neo-Nazi taking center stage at notts like they did with
> >> swansea . With there stupid salutes or even try and cause violence
> >> to discredit the E.D.L . That's why hes saying the E.D.L tried
> >> disrupting his speech in Madrid. its not rocket science to work
> >> that
> >> one out. Hes a slimy lying no good piece of turd
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Cythraul      Nov 24 2009, 09:47 AM Post #6
> >>
> >> (Pronounced: "Koo-Thrall")
> >> Posts:
> >> 779
> >> Group:
> >> Members
> >> Member
> >> #58
> >> Joined:
> >> Aug 9, 2009
> >>
> >>
> >>       You can't blame the BNP for defaming the EDL really. It's
> >> eye-for-
> >> an-eye as far as they're concerned. The EDL has, since its
> >> inception, slandered the BNP and parrotted the mainstream view
> >> that
> >> 'the BNP are fascist and nazi'.
> >>
> >> I think it's a shame that two organisations who are genuinely
> >> trying
> >> to save this country can't at least come to some kind of truce.
> >>
> >>
> >> Click here for ENGLISC CLOTHING
> >>
> >>
> >> charlie       Nov 24 2009, 09:57 AM Post #7
> >>
> >>
> >> Posts:
> >> 1,538
> >> Group:
> >> Members
> >> Member
> >> #2,424
> >> Joined:
> >> Sep 16, 2009
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Cythraul
> >> Nov 24 2009, 09:47 AM
> >> You can't blame the BNP for defaming the EDL really. It's
> >> eye-for-an-
> >> eye as far as they're concerned. The EDL has, since its inception,
> >> slandered the BNP and parrotted the mainstream view that 'the BNP
> >> are fascist and nazi'.
> >> I think it's a shame that two organisations who are genuinely
> >> trying
> >> to save this country can't at least come to some kind of truce.
> >> Why should we dance with the Devil mate. Never because it will
> >> enhance his twisted political ideas more then our cause
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Road Rage     Nov 24 2009, 10:05 AM Post #8
> >>
> >> Serial profile editor: oohhhhh yeeaaahhhh
> >> Posts:
> >> 538
> >> Group:
> >> Global Moderators
> >> Member
> >> #3,577
> >> Joined:
> >> Oct 3, 2009
> >>
> >>
> >>       have had this convo with other mods about this, as was talking
> >> to
> >> one of the bnps main activists, they beleive that we have a hidden
> >> agenda. if you want my opinion they fear the edl, because we the
> >> edl
> >> arent racist we are just englishman who want order back, who want
> >> these religous fruitcakes off our streets abusing the freedoms
> >> that
> >> they are given, abusing young war heroes and insighting racial
> >> tensions. personaly in notts if i see any twat giving a sieg heil
> >> i'll smack him in the head and hand him over to the old bill, you
> >> can stick your nazi salutes and steel capped boots, i happen to
> >> like
> >> my siehk doctor, the chinese nurses hindu secrataries and black
> >> england strikers.
> >> If I should die, think this only of me:
> >> That there's some corner of a foreign field that is 'for ever
> >> England'
> >>
> >> 'those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it'
> >>
> >> 'only the dead have seen the end of war' Plato
> >>
> >> judge not a man by the colour of his skin but by the content of
> >> his
> >> character
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Mike D <mike-d at riseup.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> Hi Durruti,
> >>
> >> Please can you stop insulting and abusing us, we have remained
> >> civil
> >> whilst discussing this issue.
> >>
> >> I hid your article because you said the EDL are not racist.
> >> Despite
> >> all the other things you are accusing us of, I hid the article for
> >> this one and only reason. I have never said that your article was
> >> not well researched, or that any other aspects of it are
> >> problematic, however I find having such a hazy definition of
> >> racism
> >> to be very problematic. If you want to discuss this further then
> >> please can you respond to my key argument points (and some others
> >> I
> >> have now added) which you have not yet done so far. Rather than
> >> stating that you know more than everyone else about antifascism
> >> please can you just engage with the argument, because we don't
> >> know
> >> you and you don't know us.
> >>
> >> 1)-The EDL having (some) black members is not evidence of not
> >> being
> >> racist because white and black people only hating Muslims is still
> >> racism.
> >> 2) -It is possible to be anti-nazi and racist.
> >> 3)-It is possible (and incredibly likely) that the swastika
> >> burning
> >> was a staged stunt to gain support.
> >> 4)-It is possible to dislike the NF whilst being racist.
> >> 5)-Others have described the fight between EDL and NF as being
> >> nothing to do with antifascism but more to do with football firm
> >> rivalry.
> >> 6)-Defining he EDL as only consisting of the "EDL leadership" (who
> >> you said wear EDL t-shirts) and excluding 98% of the people who
> >> come
> >> on their demos and shout racist abuse seems disingenuous to me.
> >> 7) -Why should we believe the EDL?
> >>
> >> I look forward to your response to these 7 points.
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> You said they are not racist because they have black members and
> >> because they burnt a swastika for a staged publicity stunt for
> >> Newsnight.
> >>
> >> I said that it is still racist to hate Muslims whilst liking black
> >> people, and that black people are also capable of being racist.
> >> Rather than throwing insults and
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 20 Dec 2009, at 22:43, martin durruti wrote:
> >>
> >>> nope that won't wash in the slightest. if IndymediaUK is simply a
> >>> newswire then why is half the stuff not news?? and so if this is
> >>> so
> >>> why do you happily allow all the deluded crap what passes for
> >>> 'anti-
> >>> fascism' on Indymedia from posters like Troll Destroya??? .. i
> >>> disagree with  quite a lot of what someone like Malatesta writes
> >>> but it is clearly extremely well researched and should be the
> >>> standard that Indymedia aspires too. ditto for my contributions.
> >>> it
> >>> is tragic in the extreme that you ignore someone who clearly
> >>> knows
> >>> a fuck sight more about this than you simply cos you ignorently
> >>> have a dogmatic myopyia that stops you allowing yourself to think
> >>> what they are saying.
> >>>
> >>> by the why it has been republished by Ian Bone on his blog ..
> >>> what
> >>> sort of fucking anarchists are you to censor???? ffs
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:24 AM, <freethepeeps at riseup.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:19 AM, <opprobrium at riseup.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> While I'm coming to this debate late in the day. I am wary of
> >>> hiding
> >>> >> articles simply because we disagree with them. Certainly
> >>> anything
> >>> >> pro-EDL
> >>> >> (or BNP etc) could and should be hidden (as both racist and
> >>> >> hierarchical),
> >>> >> but we shouldn't be policing what debate is taking place about
> >>> the
> >>> >> movement's opposition to them.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> R
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>> Whilst I can understand durruti calling myself and mike_d liars,
> >>> I am
> >>> surprised that opprobium believes him.
> >>>
> >>> The ground for hiding was that the article claimed inaccurately
> >>> that the
> >>> EDL isn't racist. The evidence that they are is on several
> >>> threads
> >>> on IMC
> >>> UK as is every single point that durruti made in the article, as
> >>> the links
> >>> I provided show. The 'debate' has happened over several threads,
> >>> and
> >>> another thread is unlikely to resolve it. Thus it is also
> >>> repeated
> >>> content
> >>> and the only thing that would come out of leaving it up is yet
> >>> another
> >>> trolled to death thread.
> >>>
> >>> My recollection of the consensus reached about IMC UK remains
> >>> that
> >>> we are
> >>> a newswire and not a bulletin board or discussion forum.
> >>>
> >>> ftp
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __
> >>> Imc-uk-process mailing list
> >>> Imc-uk-process at lists.indymedia.org
> >>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-uk-process
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __
> >>> Imc-uk-process mailing list
> >>> Imc-uk-process at lists.indymedia.org
> >>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-uk-process
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
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