[Imc-uk-tech] IRC log of Mir templates discussion 22nd April 2003
Chris
cc at riseup.net
Tue Apr 22 17:58:55 PDT 2003
Hi
These are some logs for this evening, I'll write up the key points
on the Wiki.
#uk
---
17:49 -!- mp [~jmp at 217.135.25.54] has joined #uk
17:49 < mp> hiya...
17:50 < mp> good work on the mir project!
17:50 < mp> cool...
18:05 -!- You're now known as chris_afk
18:29 -!- mp [~jmp at 217.135.25.54] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
19:35 -!- You're now known as chris
19:59 -!- vince [~vince at 129.67.41.29] has joined #uk
19:59 < vince> hi
20:00 <@chris> hi
20:00 <@chris> i'm just doing some more work on the sheffield
template
20:01 < vince> ok cool, it looks really good!
20:01 <@chris> if it all works out ok it could be used as the basis
for the others
20:01 <@chris> the colours can all be set in the css
20:01 < vince> that'd fantastic
20:01 < vince> it looks a lot better than the uktest stuff up to now
(my personal opinion)
20:02 <@chris> then if the structure of the pages matched it would
be ok having different colours and logos for different
pages
20:02 <@chris> cheers
20:02 < vince> yey, as I said it would be good to have some sort of
common set of colors to use
20:03 < vince> so that the common pages (features, news, etc.) fit
with the startpages
20:03 <@chris> yeah, well i'll makes sure it's all controlled by
some sensible css and then it'll be easy to play with
diferent colours
20:04 <@chris> lol @chris, what crap english
20:04 < vince> :-)
20:04 <@chris> also steve who did the sheffield logo might be able
to do some others
20:05 <@chris> http://www.synergynet.co.uk/sheffield-iraq/IMC/experiments/sheffieldsites1.htm
20:05 < vince> ok, but I think maybe that's the thing that local
pages should customise (the logo
20:05 < vince> )
20:05 <@chris> oh yeah, of course :-)
20:06 <@chris> as far as i'm concerned do what ever you want with
the oxford page!
20:06 <@chris> it's more fun that way :-)
20:06 < vince> of course! :-)
20:06 < vince> I'll try to work on that tonight or tomorrow anyway
20:06 < vince> the first one on the page you sent me looks really
great
20:06 <@chris> ok, i'll let the list know when the sheffield one is
in a state to be copied
20:07 < vince> good
20:07 < vince> I think we might take it as a template, change the
logo but keep the colors
20:07 < vince> and customise the rest as we want
20:07 <@chris> yeah there are a few things on that mock up that i
like that i have yet to implement
20:07 <@chris> good plan
20:08 <@chris> i'm doing a seperate css file just for the colours
20:08 < vince> good
20:08 < vince> is this the stylesheet.sheffield.template
20:08 <@chris> the logo titing background is also referenced in the
sheffield.css file with the colours
20:09 < vince> ok
20:09 <@chris> s/titing/tiling/
20:09 <@chris> yeah that is the template
20:09 <@chris> see also the reference to that file in producer.xml
20:09 < vince> ok
20:10 <@chris> all the .template files are generated using stuff in
producer.xml
20:10 < vince> I'm still confused with all these files, I didn'T
have time to look at it really and I'm not a very
good html guy...
20:10 <@chris> sorry, all the .inc files are generated from
.template files
20:11 <@chris> don't worry, it might only be a matter of changing
the location of the logo image :-)
20:11 < vince> :-) but I'd like to customise it a little bit more...
:-)
20:11 <@chris> sure, no problem :-)
20:11 < vince> I just have to take time to look at all that anyway
20:11 < vince> the .inc files are the files that we access online
20:11 <@chris> yeah i should also get around to documenting this on
the wiki pages ...
20:12 <@chris> yeah and I made a list of these here:
20:12 < vince> could be a good idea, just a basic explanation of the
framework
20:12 <@chris> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkMirDesignGrids#Templates_and_file_names_for_the
20:13 < vince> ok good I didn't read it
20:13 <@chris> the wiki is quite handy for this stuff, it's easy to
use
20:13 < vince> can we customise these .inc files
20:14 <@chris> no you should edit the .template files that generate
the .inc files
20:14 < vince> ok that's what I meant
20:14 <@chris> :-)
20:14 < vince> but can we do for example a special
navigation.template for the Oxford part
20:14 < vince> or they are the same for all the local indymedias
20:14 <@chris> sure, you can do a different one
20:15 < vince> really, I didn't know that, that's cool
20:15 <@chris> i was planning to make the navigation.template
obsolete
20:15 <@chris> navigation.oxford.special.template
20:15 < vince> and it will work, cool
20:15 <@chris> you just need to add a Generator line in producer.xml
for it
20:15 < vince> ok
20:16 <@chris> copy an existing element and edit it is easiest
20:16 < vince> producer "produces" the .inc files from the template,
right?
20:16 <@chris> i guess :-)
20:16 <@chris> i'm new to this as well!
20:16 <@chris> things like that are best asked on #mir
20:16 < vince> :-)
20:17 < vince> and when for example I read a post on the newswire,
what page is it?
20:17 < vince> what .template?
20:17 <@chris> in fact perhaps, if there is nobody else we should
take this there?
20:17 <@chris> uh
20:17 < vince> yup
20:17 <@chris> dunno, i've not got there yet -- which template for
that
20:18 < vince> ok, that's fine, cause it would be good if these
pages could be customised also to fit with the startpages
20:18 < vince> anyway
20:18 <@chris> ok, i'll switch channels, we should also check back
here in case someone joins
20:18 < vince> I'll customise the startpage first!
20:18 <@chris> yeah we need to ask about that on #mir ...
#mir
----
20:18 < chris> hi
20:19 < deva> I like it, and I always work that way too
20:19 < chris> would it be interupting anything to ask some mir
questions?
20:19 < deva> no. . .go ahead and ask
20:19 < chris> we can always discuss them on #uk and come back later
:-)
20:19 < juggo> deva: just fixed articles so the
topic/region.actionheading uses languages
20:19 < deva> nice
20:20 < deva> i am no mirmeister, but i'll be happy to answer any
questions i can
20:20 < chris> ok, cheers
20:20 < juggo> yeah, zapata's the expert, but we have been using mir
for a little while now
20:21 -!- vince [~vince at 129.67.41.29] has joined #mir
20:21 < deva> i know something about working with templates
20:21 < deva> and have a decent general idea of what mir is capable
of
20:21 < chris> the .inc files that are generated from the .template
files with references in producer.xml
20:21 < chris> how often are they generated?
20:21 < chris> does this make sense:
20:22 < chris> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkMirDesignGrids#Templates_and_file_names_for_the
20:22 <@Zapata> hey chris..
20:22 < chris> that is a list of includes that i'm starting to set
up for the uk site
20:22 < chris> hey Zapata, good you are here :-)
20:22 < juggo> looks liek an aweful lot
20:23 <@Zapata> your question on when what is generated:
20:23 <@Zapata> that's entirely up to yourself...
20:23 <@Zapata> you can configure:
20:23 < juggo> i wouldn't recommend doing it that way, it'll use a
lot of server power
20:23 <@Zapata> 1. which producers need to be called when an article
is posted
20:23 <@Zapata> 2. which producers need to be called when a comment
is posted
20:23 <@Zapata> 3. which producers need to be called when someone
clicks on "generate all new" in admin
20:24 <@Zapata> 4. call any producer yourself via the advanced page
20:24 <@Zapata> 5. configure cronjobs to call producers...
20:24 < chris> ok, and is each producer an element like this:
20:24 < chris> <producer name="navigation">
20:25 <@Zapata> you always call a producer/verb combination...
20:25 <@Zapata> so, also check out the <verbs> section
20:25 < chris> you can have more than one verb per producer?
20:25 <@Zapata> yeah
20:26 < chris> brb - food
20:26 < chris> thx
<snip />
20:40 < chris> < juggo> i wouldn't recommend doing it that way,
it'll use a lot of server
20:40 < chris> power
20:40 < chris> was that in reference to the SSI includes or the java
code?
20:41 < juggo> ssi
20:41 < juggo> if that's what you're planning
20:41 < chris> oh, ok
20:42 < chris> i'll look to see if there can be fewer
20:42 < juggo> we have one navigation that just includes everything
else
20:42 < juggo> using freemarker includes
20:42 < chris> are the servers being throttles by lack of cpu rather
than bandwidth then?
20:43 < juggo> don't know, we haven't gone live... but every bit
helps,
20:43 < chris> what is freemarker?
20:43 < juggo> generate one file rather than several
20:43 < juggo> the tempalte language mir uses
20:43 < chris> ah
20:43 < juggo> so you could keep all the files you have listed
20:43 < juggo> just don't generate them
20:44 < chris> right so it would be better if i used <include>
rather than ssi?
20:44 < juggo> and in navigation call <include
"navigation.imcs.imc">
20:44 < juggo> well, it's a trade off
20:44 < juggo> i figure it's better to spend the time on generation
20:44 < juggo> of course, we have a powerful machine doing the
generation and several lesser machiens doing the serving
20:44 < juggo> so in our case it makes sense
20:45 < chris> ok and that is the same for the uk site?
20:45 < chris> the server set up?
20:45 < juggo> and i think if you were using ssi for all 10 of those
includes you'd be using a lot of ssi
20:45 < juggo> don't know how the uk site is set up...
20:46 < chris> from memory ssi is not that slow (i remember some
templating systems time charts)
20:47 < juggo> right but generate once or send out 10 ssi's on each
page load
20:47 < chris> ok, good point :-)
20:47 < juggo> i mean, you can decide what's best for you, but for
our site it's not worth it
20:47 < chris> if the box has a lot of memort it might not involve
disk access that often
20:48 < juggo> for us, any time our about.inc is changed for
example, we have to regenerate the navigation bar, so
it's not real time, on the other hand, generating the
navigation bar takes < 1 second
20:48 < chris> but i'll use <include> whereever i can
20:48 < juggo> yeah, just be wise about it is all I'm saying
20:48 < juggo> ssi should be used on things that need updating
without regenerating
20:49 < chris> ok
20:49 < juggo> things like archive navigation if you've worked on
that, don't want to regenerate all archive pages every
time a new page is added so it's wise to use ssi for
that
20:49 < chris> right, hmmm
20:49 < juggo> but, our navigation bar uses all <include> and it
works great
20:50 < chris> so the newswire is best included with ssi for archive
pages?
20:50 < juggo> not the newswire, but archive navigation... i don't
know if you've looked at that yet
20:51 < chris> no
20:51 < juggo> http://publish.portland.indymedia.org/en/feature/archive.shtml
20:51 < juggo> go to the bottom and there's the list of all the
pages
20:51 < juggo> or click jump to archive page
20:53 -!- Netsplit che.indymedia.org <-> kropotkin.indymedia.org
quits: knom
20:53 -!- Netsplit che.indymedia.org <-> kropotkin.indymedia.org
quits: knom
20:53 < chris> ok so the pages: 109, 108, 107, ... bit is done with
a <include>?
20:53 <@Zapata> deva, juggo: on pdfs: it's now "on demand"...
20:54 < juggo> no, that's done with ssi
20:54 < chris> ok but when a new feature is archived that list might
beed regenerating anyway?
20:54 < juggo> that way when a new page is added we just change that
file and we don't have to regenerate all the pages
20:54 < juggo> am i just ridiculously confusin gyou?
20:54 < chris> no it's ok
20:54 < chris> i'm getting there
20:55 < juggo> yes, so that list is generated with archive update
20:55 < juggo> but if it used <include> all the archive pages would
have to be regenerated
20:55 < juggo> and we have 350+ newswire archive pages
20:55 < chris> yes, ok, i'm with you :-)
20:56 < juggo> good, it's difficult stuff, but the more you're aware
of the better... there's no one right solution
obviosuly, just a question of trade-offs
20:56 < chris> yeah, i do this stuff at work too...
20:57 < chris> did you consider a list the the latest newswire stuff
in a right hand col for those pages?
20:57 < juggo> yes, we had a long debate over it
20:57 < deva> he he he
20:57 < deva> yeah
20:58 < juggo> the problem is that when you have a lot of pages you
can't see them all at once
20:58 < chris> ah, interesting, not abt server load though ;-)
20:58 < juggo> no, all about usability
20:58 < juggo> plus, that column causes the page to be much longer
20:58 < chris> yeah i'd like to do it without tables ideally
20:58 < juggo> so, this is the best compromise, short page, one
click to jump to the list of pages, the ability to tell
what page you're on easily when looking at that list
20:59 < chris> not that it would make things shorter...
20:59 < chris> yeah it looks fine to me :-)
20:59 < deva> I would like a field to type in a page number
20:59 < juggo> http://publish.portland.indymedia.org/en/newswire/archive.shtml
20:59 < deva> (on the list)
20:59 < juggo> with 350+ pages it's a difficult layout issue
20:59 < chris> that would be a simple script...
21:00 < juggo> deva: i agree, but it requires code of some king,
i java, javascript, cgi
21:00 < deva> juggo - you think we should have a back to top link at
the bottom?
21:00 < chris> the existing uk site is the same so i'll just copy
it...
21:00 < juggo> deva: maybe, i've definitely considered it
21:00 < juggo> i mean, if you use the link to jump to the bottom you
can just click back
21:00 < deva> me too. . .above the hr line on the right
21:01 < chris> http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3
21:01 < juggo> yeah, i'll put that in and we can see how it looks
21:01 < juggo> chris: yes, it would be a simple script but our site
has no cgi, and I'd like to keep it that way, plus,
we're somewhat averse to javascipt on the site
21:02 < chris> +1 :-)
21:02 < chris> brb
21:02 < chris> i agree
21:02 < juggo> so, probably a java applet, or extension to an
existing applet at some point int he future
21:03 < deva> yup
21:03 < deva> zapata - pdf's are now in demand? you mean it
generates the pdf on the fly?
21:04 -!- vince [~vince at 129.67.41.29] has left #mir []
21:05 < deva> sigh::: tried posting a comment for about the 15th
time on the current site. . .
21:05 < juggo> i know, soon, soon,
21:05 < deva> I can wait a week
21:07 < deva> ok. . .I give up. . .stopped trying on two different
comments
21:07 < juggo> cool, image height and width are in for the icons
now, pages load .5 sec faster
21:07 < deva> sweet
21:11 < chris> ok, i'm going to send this log to the uk-imc-tech
list and write some stuff on the wiki, cya
Chris
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