[New-imc] Re: IRC meeting

[Rosa de la Boca]

Here it is:

Present: Clara, Libby, Momo, Sieste, Clampin, Delon (both from Toulouse),
Rosa

Record of the new-imc meeting - 10/10/04

<clara> hi



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<clampin> hello

<rosabrasil> hi

<clara> hi clampin

<clampin> first time i come on this channel ; my name is phil from toulouse

<clampin> hi clara

<clampin> hi rosabrasil

<delon> hi i'm alain delon from toulouse city

<clara> shall we wait a bit and see whether we have enough people coming for
the meeting?

<clampin> it is good idea ;

<rosabrasil> yes let's wait a couple of minutes

<delon> all right

<clara> hmm

<clara> so it's only the 4 of us?

<clampin> there might have been some confusion about both of your
propositions

<rosabrasil> Only 4 people?

<clara> ?

<clara> me, rosa, clampin, delon

<clara> there was no reply what so ever on my proposal to move it to 16
gmt...

<clampin> yes

<clampin> you also spoke about 18 gmt

<clara> oh...

<clara> but still it was posed as a question that nobody answered

<clampin> yep

<clampin> shall we go on anyway ?

<clara> i'm not sure...

<rosabrasil> Usually these meetings have few people anyway...

<clara> who has been sponsoring an imc before? besides me?

<rosabrasil> Clara, in fact I have been the only Latin American volunteer
active in new imc for almost 2 years

<clara> hi

<clampin> this goes with the topic :) we are even not plainly in , in
youlouse , but the topic interest us :)

<rosabrasil> I have already sponsored some Latin American new imcs

<clara> hi rosa, didn't recognize your name, sorry

<delon> me not

<clara> but clampin, delon: if your are not even in imc toulouse: who do you
want to help setting up new collcetives?



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<clampin> maybe we may help looking for new ways not to discourage new
comers :)

<clara> sure :-)

<clara> good point

<delon> what?

<clampin> something like a newbies mutual help tool

<rosabrasil> a more "friendly like" process...

<clara> yes

<clampin> yes :)

<delon> yes

<clara> i wanted to make a meeting so that we can at least ensure the basic
working of new-imc again

<clara> but I think that's not possible without more people who are actually
involved in the work

<rosabrasil> ok

<clampin> shall the meeting be postponed for the purpose ?

<clara> i also think that we need not have a more friendly communication,
but i hope that that's easier once we can at least guarnetee that all new
collectives at least get a reply

<rosabrasil> what were the itens to be discussed in the meeting?

<clara> i proposed some in the list

<clara> - at the moment at lot of imc applications end up with nobody even

<clara> answering them. How can we keep track of the applications and make
sure

<clara> that they all get answered and a sponsor?

<clara> - updating the wiki: the wiki is kind of messed up, and I think not
even

<clara> the sponsors of different IMCs use them. Can two or three of us

<clara> restructure the site to make it clearer with different sections on
(1)

<clara> general info for a new collective, (2) the task of a sponsor, (3)
new

<clara> collectives that applied: how far are they, who's sponsoring them?
(4)

<clara> info needed after and imc is approved: the global lists to join,
contact

<clara> db, global workign groups etc, and maybe (5) info for people who
want to

<clara> restart an IMC that looks like it's down.

<clara> - should we maybe do a roll call to see who is on this list, what
they

<clara> want to contribute, so that we maybe also can form teams where
necessary

<clara> to deal with IMCs in their own languages, or to combine technical

<clara> support with help in collective building, understanding of the
network

<clara> as such etc.

<clara> <end>

<rosabrasil> ok

<clara> but also from the lack of replies: i'm a bit frustrated at the
moment

<clara> (or maybe that has to do with the lack of sleep over ahimsa in the
last days....)

<rosabrasil> Well, we may postpone the meeting, but who guarantees that more
people will participate in the next meeting?

<clampin> there are these probs whith the shuttings ; they may be the origin
of the lack of people here

<clara> yeah

<clara> what do you think about restructuring the wiki?

<rosabrasil> This meeting has been extensively publicized

<clampin> not so much

<clara> we can wait and see whether there are more ppl about at 16 GMT?

<clampin> maybe should be usefull to make a call right now on other
channels...

<rosabrasil> Clara, I keep an updated Twiki page on the Latin American
applications

<rosabrasil> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcRecentLatinAmerica

<clara> nice

<clara> i would like to restructer the whole new-imc wiki on the categories
that i mentioned

<rosabrasil> Yes, we could work on that

<Libby> we also need a proper system to support new sponsors

<clara> hi libby :-)

<Libby> wowi wanteds to take on the burma application but she had no clue
where to start

<Libby> hi clara, hi all

<clara> that's why i thought about a section on the tasks of a sponsor

<delon> good bye everybody

<clampin> sorry i would have liked to ask about the principle of a unique
person in charge to discuss with new comers

<clara> ?

<rosabrasil> Hello Libby

<Libby> heya rosabrasil

<clara> clampin: how do you mean?

<Libby> hows the status on getting ste site back up?

<clara> there's nobody in charge

<rosabrasil> Clara, once delon and clampin are here, let me make them a
question: what did you find more difficult in the new imc process? what you
didn't like?

<clampin> seems like it may interfere with the non-hierarchical principle
approach of imc for newbies

<clara> good idea

<Libby> suze mentionned the "jargon" being a problem, we seem to speak
chinese to newbies

<Libby> sometimes questions get anwered, or at least we think we answered
then but the person asking the question seems unaware because they don't
understand

<clara> should we make a list of questions and problems that come up?

<delon> rosa:i ts a bit long. but it s necessary i think. we need time to
create something stong

<clampin> some confusion appeared between our only sponsor's own meanings
and our own understanding of principles of unity

<rosabrasil> who was the sponsor?

<clampin> does it matter ?

<rosabrasil> sure

<delon> genex

<Libby> well, those things happenede before

<Libby> in that case the sponsor can start the procedure and give a warning
about what he/she thinks is not in line with the general interpretation,
like rosabrasil did with the last imc she sponsored

<Libby> and then its up to the rest of the collectives to decide wheater to
accept the interpretation or pronounce a block

<clampin> yes but the matter is also the "normative" aspect of the approach

<Libby> there is a reason why there is a newimc process



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6* clara is unsure whether we now discussing the concept of new-imc as such?

<clara> in that case we should make an agenda

<clampin> undoubtably

<Libby> and only the points between brackets in the pou are open for
interpretation for example

<Libby> because there wasn't any consensus on those points



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6* clara wants to know what we are discussing, because if it;s a general
debate then i'll leave you to it for now

<clampin> is not concensus a constant process ? sorry clara lets come back
to your points

<Libby> the others you either can accept and continue your application or
reject and create some different form of media-activst site

<clara> no, it's fine if you want to do a general discussion, then i go back
to writing the zmag article

<clampin> we strongly want to be a part of indymedia for months !

<delon> but  we are not hurry

<Libby> yes, but do you have a problem to accept the pou?

<clampin> not at all

<clara> bye



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<Libby> so, then, can we please move on with the meeting and discuss what
needs discussing for newimc volunteers?

<clara> okay :-)

<clara> my main points are 2

<clara> (1) to find a structure that we can guarantee that all new
collectives get a reply, and a spnosor

<clara> and (2) to make the wikipage usable

<clara> that's what i would like to discuss

<Libby> clara, i agree

<Libby> for point 1 i think we should do a roll call

<clara> and maybe make an open consulatancy hour on irc for new collectives
who want to talk to ohters beside their sponsor -)

<Libby> make an inventory of all the volunteers, where they live and maybe
also how much experience they have

<rosabrasil> that's a good idea

<Libby> clara, good idea

<clara> that's my point (3)

<clara> the roll call

<rosabrasil> I mean, both ideas

<clara> also which langauge

<Libby> basen on how many peopel we heve, theyr geogfraphical location and
their experience, we can set up a system to divide the work

<Libby> clara, yes, language too

<clara> that sounds like a good plan

<Libby> rosabrasil for example could also help an portugese imc through
process if needed, or maybe mosambique

<Libby> if they'd ever wish to have one :-)

<clara> we should also start putting all applications on a list, and add the
sponsor

<Libby> yes

<Libby> wiki?

<clara> just for now, untill we have a better system

<clara> yes

<clara> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewimcMeeting1



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6* Libby newsflash, klaas just got of the phone with bart staes,
europarlementarian, who promised to raise the ahimsa issue in the eu
parliament tomorrow

<clara> cool

<rosabrasil> yes

<clara> that might also help with the collectives who send their newimc form
several times

<Libby> yeah, chek for doubles or see if its separate collectives

<clara> good point



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<clampin> (why not the sponsors get to be full collectives instead of
individuals?)

<rosabrasil> We could develop a rule to answer all forms and find a sponsor
in 48 hours

<clara> sounds good

<rosabrasil> Clampin, it all depends on the number of volunteers available

<Libby> yeah, should be enough

<rosabrasil> There are regions with few volunteers

<clara> so far jay often sends out a mail to at least anowledge that we got
the newimc forms

<clampin> ok

<clara> but since he doesn't have time or so in the last months, nobody has
done that

<rosabrasil> I don't know how many french speaking volunteers we have

<Libby> pseudopunk used to do that when it was still clear he did all of the
european applications

<clara> that's were the roll call comes in :-)

<clampin> i will be :)

<Libby> there was a task division but lmots of people joined and others left

<clara> yeah... and often tasks get lost that way

<clampin> maybe a double system would fit : one sponsor plus one collective

<clara> no

<Libby> rosabrasil, there is geneX, and now also ttx and sieste, but tey are
new at this

<Libby> and there is me of course

<clampin> and jocito

<clara> can we make a proper list or questions for a roll call?

<clara> instead of getting lost in details?

<clara> :-)

<clara> because with a roll call we will know who speaks french, german etc

<Libby> clampin, its allready very hard to find enough individuals as
sponsors, if we ask collectives to volunteer we seriously rist ending up
with no sponsors at all

<clampin> the meaninfg is all collective have gone through a process

<rosabrasil> Ok Clara, I agree, but remember that all wiki users have a page
with a small bio. The only thing is that it isn't done in a systematic way

<Libby> i'd go for nick, local-imc and where that is, languages spoken and
numer of imc's sponsored

<clampin> why then should they not feel responable for helping others to
emerge ?



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6* clara is getting irritated... can we please stick to the task at hand and
not to the general discussion on the newimc proceuder

<momo> (i'm from nantes imc and i've got some times to be involved in
new-imc (for translation..) .)

<Libby> because keeping an imc on line is a shitload of work

<momo> (but i'm new too)

<clampin> sorry

<clara> :-)

<Libby> and very few people can be motivated to do thins for the network on
top of all that

<clara> i think we should also include something like the "area of
expertise"

<Libby> yes clara

<clara> like technical help is something different then knowledge about
consensus or ediroral policies

<Libby> like for me "specialised in impossible cases"

<clara> :-)

<clara> where that is might also include regions where people are likely to
go to

<clara> or maybe that's a mixed question in the end

<Libby> we could add "additional information" so people can fill that out
the way they like

<clara> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewimcMeeting1

<clara> should we then also purge the list?

<clara> like kick everybody of who does not send the roll call?

<Libby> yes

<Libby> but i'd check the time we can do that with psuedopunk, he's very
busy saving what can be saved of the ahimsa disaster and he's the listadmin

<rosabrasil> I woul also suggest that should be accepted in the list only
people with direct or indirect involvement with an existing or forming imc

<Libby> lest wait till he has time to resubscribe people who forgot to send
the rollcall and stuff

<Libby> rosabrasil, yes

<rosabrasil> Some very suspect people appear in the list from time to time

<clara> so we send out the request for a roll call (repeatedly), make a list
on the wiki, clear subscribers afterwards, and then use the list to find a
system of organizing the replies and sponsors better

<clara> i think it should only be people with an active involvement in
Indymedia

<clampin> what do u mean rosabrasil ?

<Libby> yes, voluntezers and people who want to follow up on their
application

<clara> there are some people who would be good sponsor but who are not
anymore with a local collective

<rosabrasil> That sometimes people that don't even know about indymedia join
the list

<Libby> and request people who are not planning to be a newimc volunteer to
unsubscribe after their application went through

<clara> but i don't think that people who are in an collective that is not
yet approved should be able to sponsor another imc

<clampin> k :)

<clampin> clear

<Libby> clara, no, i don't think so either :-)

<clara> actually i don;t think that people should subscribe to follow their
application

<rosabrasil> this is an open list

<Libby> its not strictly necessary, since the list is public

<clampin> ~

<clara> we get into this annoying situation that people send all their
communication with their sponsor also to the new-imc list

<Libby> thats because that point is not explained well enough

<clara> i think it should be a list of those people who are actually willing
to sponsor an imc

<clara> so i would prefer not to encourage people to subscribe to it while
they are setting up a new collective

<clara> all communication with or about an new collective should be directed
to them anyway

<Libby> yes, because they don't unsubscribe after they gone through process,
some even don't unsubscribe even if they give up on joining the ntwork

<clampin> who do u mean Libby ?

<clara> like this guy how wanted to push through vienna, without even being
in an imc

<Libby> yes, submissions are standardly sent to the newimc list and the list
of the proposed imc

<Libby> clampin, there are several people like that, since prolly not even
half onf the applications ever get through to become an imc

<clara> if we asked ppl to unsubscribe, after they went thorugh the
procedure, then we need a system to folow that up

<clara> i think that's unnessary work

<Libby> yes, and that will slack of etc... so its better not to have them
subsicribe in the first place

<clara> (and btw: we could get more list admins if pseudopunk doesn;t have
time)

<clampin> why not renew the subscriptions annually ?

<Libby> he made a call for more a couple of months ago

<Libby> and only one person responded

<Libby> but i think he still has to do most fo the work

<clara> i think by now i'm also a bit tired of all those people who just
lurk on lists without commitment

<clampin> thats a part of the game :)

<clara> no it certainly isn't

<clampin> :(

<Libby> noi, its demotivating

<clara> working groups with a lot of subscribers and only a few ppl working
are really demotivating

<Libby> and newimc is a working group, so the list should be for people who
work

<Libby> and it needs reactivating badly

<clampin> i will not discuss the point at time :)

<Libby> right now people sit in their corner waiting to see if others will
act upon a new application for example

<clara> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewimcMeeting1

<clara> so we will need one or two volunteers who will deal with the roll
calls and purging the list afterwards

<clampin> i understand your problems ; i'll just ask for a new meeting
discussing the global problem ; i mean this could also be solved with new
principles of involvement from members of the network

<clara> should ppl send them to the new-imc list? or to a person?

<Libby> the roll calls?

<clara> yes

<Libby> maybe to the list, but then the volunteers must subscribe as
listadmins

<Libby> even if its only temporary

<clara> have several list admins is always good

<clara> we have at least 4 on www-features for example



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6* clara has to leave in 25 minutes

<Libby> clampin, c'est pas que ce n'est pas interessant ce que tu dit, mais
on doit reorganiser les chose a un niveau bcp plus de base, on pourra
certainement utliliser tès remarques plus tard

<Libby> quand on est on phase de reconstruction :-)

<rosabrasil> People, let  me just make an off-topic remark about Toulouse

<Libby> faut pas penser qu' on les jete à la poublelle

<rosabrasil> The Toulouse process is going on for months

<rosabrasil> I don't know what's going on there, it seems a well-structured
collective

<rosabrasil> So maybe other french-speaking volunteers could give a hand



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6* Libby indicates she specialised at getting processes that got stuck back
on track

<rosabrasil> Great  Libby!

<clara> Libby-impossible-case-rescuer :-)

<rosabrasil> It's not common that a new-imc process takes so long



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<Libby> and there is allways worse, i've gotten one group through process
where it took 20 months to get them approved



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<clara> oaky...

<clamp1> thanx for your remark rosabrasil :)

<Libby> and if i fail there is allways pseudopunk or blicero and their
sledge hammer diplomacy :-)

<clara> a list with open applications, sponsors, level of activty might
help...



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6* clara is just about to block an imc she's sponsoring :-)

<Libby> i saw

<Libby> well, you know where to find me :-)

<clara> they actually put up a date that for their launch that they could
not even make if there was no open questions :-(

<Libby> aiaiai

<Libby> now thats the list dealth with

<Libby> what about restructuring the wiki? shall we leave that till after
the restructuring of the list and have a renewed enthousiastic team?

<clara> i think we could start thinking about the general outline

<Libby> because we've been managing so far, we can manage for a coulpe more
weeks

<clara> like the 5  categories i proposed

<Libby> i think a nice wellcome page with a good table of contents

<clara> and have people start thinking aout them

<clara> different sections on (1)

<clara> [17:32] <clara> general info for a new collective, (2) the task of a
sponsor, (3) new

<clara> [17:32] <clara> collectives that applied: how far are they, who's
sponsoring them? (4)

<clara> [17:32] <clara> info needed after and imc is approved: the global
lists to join, contact

<clara> [17:32] <clara> db, global workign groups etc, and maybe (5) info
for people who want to revive and existing imc

<Libby> and put proper links on each page, to the startpage and to the
related topics main oage

<clara> and then also delete old wiki pages

<Libby> yes, regrouping is certainly necessary

<Libby> yes, only the most up to date information

<Libby> we'll need to make a proper inventory

<Libby> and as rosabrasil said, ask all people who contributed wiki pages to
fill out the info with their id, so we can contact them if needed

<clara> so (6) would be the roll calls

<clara> what do you think of those 6 sections? anything else?

<clara> "all people who contributed wiki pages to fill out the info" -what
do you meand by that?

<clamp1> what about  place for for voluntary collectives whishing to act
like friendly-supporting teams ?

<clara> they should join the list as subscribers and send a roll call

<Libby> the info with their wiki-id, so we have their e-mailadres if we have
a question

<clara> ?

<clara> ah...

<clamp1> k , is it technically possible ?

<clara> but the wiki-id is in the list of canges

<clamp1> it is going pretty well and fast actually

<clara> i think 2 or 3 ppl should take a couple of hours and restructure
everything

<clara> instead of to many people startign at the same time

<Libby> yep, and take the time to make a decent task devision



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<clara> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewimcMeeting1

<clara> i need to go in a second

<clara> is there anything else that's really important now?

<clara> who sends a mail to new-imc?

<clampin> i'm not sure to receive positively the choice shutting the list to
newbies

<clampin> there might be potential voluntiers among them

<Libby> yes, but they can join once their imc got through process

<rosabrasil> I agree with clampin, let's take this issue to another occasion

<clara> i think we need volunteers in a lot of working groups, and we should
have good info for newly approved imcs

<Libby> we don't want to exclude them to become a part of the working group
in the future

<clara> like once they are approved telling htem about www-features, new-imc
etc

<clara> and then invite them to join and help

<Libby> also we often see people join as volunteers after they got trhough
process who are not the original liaisons

<Libby> sometimes right after they gone through the process

<clampin> there is nothing to do with such behaviors...

<clara> but new-imc is a working gorup

<clara> not an inforamtion list

<rosabrasil> Each case is different. I think we should allow these people to
join the list when, for instance, when there is a debate and they need to
send a lot of emails to the list



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6* Libby knods

<clampin> i agree with this ; then why not going along simply insisting on
it ?

<Libby> rosabrasil, yes, of course

<clara> yes, but in general i think we can only takle the problem of lacking
commitment if we really make working gorups working gorups

<Libby> but process is a moderated list and everybody's mails usually get
through if they meet the criteria

<clara> yes

<Libby> and that works, so in case of a debate all mails can be let through

<clara> actually: all mails get through on new-imc as well , from
non-subscribers if they are on-topic

<clampin> lol

<clara> i really think that we should tell new collectives properly about
all working groups once they are approved, and then invite people to join
them

<clara> anyway: i need to run of now

<rosabrasil> Ok clara

<clampin> have a nice run, clara

<clara> libby, rosa: can you send the notes to new-icm?

<clara> bye


----- Original Message -----
From: "libby" <libbylibby at skynet.be>
To: "Petros Evdokas" <petros at cyprus-org.net>
Cc: <new-imc at lists.indymedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-imc] Re: IRC meeting


> Hey Petros,
>
> You are right, but i am sorry, i don't know how to log, maybe someone
> else logged.
>
> Libby
>
> Petros Evdokas wrote:
>
> >>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:11:00 +0200
> >>From: libby <libbylibby at skynet.be>
> >>Subject: [New-imc] IRC meeting
> >>To: New imc <new-imc at lists.indymedia.org>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hey,
> >>
> >>We had the irc meeting, not too many people where there, so additional
> >>input and help would be welcome.
> >>
> >>You can find a summary on the wiki
> >>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewimcMeeting1
> >>
> >>Greetings,
> >>
> >>Libby
> >>
> >>-------------
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >Thanks for posting this summary. But if we want the proceedings of the
> >irc discussions to be better integrated into the discussions we have
> >here by email, it would be best to post someone's record of the
> >conversation (just a simple copy-paste).
> >
> >Everything about a conversation, like who said what, the reasoning
> >that was given, etc., is important for us in order to be able to
> >integrate the irc discussions into the workings of the work- group. In
> >other words, that discussion needs to be shared among all of us so
> >that it can be utilized to best degree possible.
> >
> >If that record does not exist, maybe we can start keeping one starting
> >from the next irc meeting?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >Petros
> >-------------
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-imc mailing list. Lista de correo New-imc
> >New-imc at lists.indymedia.org
> >http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/new-imc
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-imc mailing list. Lista de correo New-imc
> New-imc at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/new-imc