[New-imc] unsubscribing lurkers
vally_x at lycos.com
Thu Oct 28 04:33:08 PDT 2004
I think while there dozens of network lists dealing with a whole lot of issues, anyone involved in
some of those dozens of lists knows that this list(newimc) and process are amongst the main lists that
articulate and deal with the philosophy of the network and thus amongst the most important list as far
as network processes are concern. It is on this lists that we have every now and then to deal POU and
Membership critieria etc(network policy).
It is on this lists the we look at the specific situation of groups in different circumstances that we
probably had not imagined before to allow them to become members of the network after which they have
thesame rights like everyother imc on network issues.
It is permitted in the network to be involved in dozens of other projects as a network activists and
thus to slip around if need be. There have never been a problem as far as I know in any lists because
of the lurkers and which I can say with certainty there are dozens of people in other network lists
that every now and then cannot afford to do work for the network. Now to have to write to inform
others that one will be gone for a while is a very complicated thing as one is all the time busy with
lots of things at the same time.
If a group send their application here and do not get an answer as soon as they had hoped to get one
they normally write again here for those who know where, or to process. And that has been so from the
very beginning and is surely going to be so even if it is a 5person list. The list is a volunteer list
and people volunteer their time when they can. And if someone from a new group happens to be
registered here then they will quickly understand how it works rather than not being here and only
imagining what may be going wrong, thusthe need for more ppl here.
In all of this, there is a certain insensitivity to folks in countries where internet access is a
serious problem and who still wish to work in this group. Here there have been issues that came up
when dealing with the application of a group which when they come up the next time it is easy to deal
with, thus a learning process.
Overall if we wish to throwout lurkers from the lists then we surely need to give a definition for who
is a lurker; how long must one be silence in a list or irc channel to be a lurker and ....
There will need be a written proposal sent to process on the need to kick out lurkers (may be not only
on list but also on irc even though dozens of ppl on irc are lurkers). Again I've not been convinced
by the argument that lurkers disturb work on a list or on an irc channel, for that is an assumption
that the lurkers are not learning anything in the on going process. It sounds as if they just like to
get full mailboxes with mail from this list. It is absolutely difficult to read from lists archives, I
do not know if am just too stupid to get my way around archives easily but it is confusing to sort out
what one wants instead of being in the lists and quickly reading mails from the list when one can.
----- Original Message -----
From: clara <clara at ifrik.org>
To: new-imc at indymedia.org
Subject: Re: [New-imc] unsubscribing lurkers
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:39:07 +0200
> first of all: I actually think that lurkers do harm. If there are 117
> people on this list, then it would be enough if I answer about 1 mail
> from a new collective every 2 years, if we want to share this work
> evenly among us. If there are only about 15 actively working: then I
> should take up the contact with a new collective every 2 or 3 months.
I think it will not be possible to answer 1 mail every 2 years, for while some activists have much
time they take upon themselves(voluntarily) to answer applications more regularly. It is not about
sharing the work it is about doing the work,it is about volunteers being avaliable who can when
possible volunteer their time to respond to application. And if there are 15 people there is no
guarantee that one or two of them might not be carried into some other process in other projects and
one or two others have free time and can deal with more applications.
> If I know that there are only 2 german speakers on this list, then I am
> much more inclined to react to a mail from a german speaking list - but
> if there is an unknown number somewhere in the shadows of this list,
> then i can easily let an mail like imc vienna pass because i have other
> important things to do right now.
But that scenario is not happening just now that thee are 117 people on the list, it has always been
like that. Not forgetting that at times people help groups from different corners of the globe and the
Vienna application could also be handled by a non-German speaking person if it got to that.
> One reason why answering to new collectives takes so long, can also be
> that most of us feel that there are enough other people who can do it
> this time.
There is also the fact that ppl cannot manage at times with all other stuff they are into.
> Secondly: this is a working group. It is not a liason list. The task of
> a liason is to report back and forth between global lists and local
> collectives so that not every individual of a local collective needs to
> be subscribed to all lists (like imc-communication), or that all imc's
> can have the same input in decission making (like on imc-finance).
But that is not suppose to mean that when all members of a local collective wish to, they cannot be
members of a global working group. I think the point is getting to know the process rather than
getting reports about the process, which makes some people want to be in a series of global working
groups. In a more standard situation global-working-groups should be composed of liasons from local
imcs to contribute the position of their local imc on the activities(discusions/decisions) of the
global working group in question.
> new-imc however is a working group. It is to coordinate contacts, and a
> lot of the communication with a new collective does not go through this
That is new for me. Normally ALL the communication except one that is repeated, is suppose to be cc to
this list. For the volunteer handling the application is doing it unbehalf of the whole working group.
And everyone needs know that the volunteer is using the same parameters that have been used in all
> It's only once in a while that some issue is discussed in a bigger
> circle. So everybody, who's on this list just "to know what's going on
> in the network" is in the wrong place anyway.
To know how new imcs get to become part of the network which is a very important part of knowing
network processes, this is definitely the place to be.
> (In fact that much more what imc-communication is for... but that's
> another story...)
Communication is for liasons to get information to their local groups that get reported there.
But you surely will agree that lots is going on in the network than gets to Communication and every
imc is encouraged to get involved in network processes for it is about the life of the whole network.
> I don't mind people on this list who want to watch a bit before they
> take over a task themselves, and I would be glad with some input from
> newbies while restructuring the wiki-pages and making processes more
I think the easier way to make all including newbies to participate in the restructuring of the
wiki-pages is to write an email here saying what you plan to change or move around, as some people do
not see any problems with the wiki pages as they are right now. The mail should say what you plan to
move around, then ppl can look and see if it is worth it or not and explain if need be why they think
And I think transparency of the process here is even encouraging more people to join the list.
Especially as the dicussions here have been very constructive.
> I don't mind people to take a break for a while (especially not if they
> make others aware of it, and not just only slip away).
> But i do mind people on list, on irc or in physical meetings who only
> want to look (or worse: only to criticise once in a while).
Ya! but it makes sense to be quiet if some other person already made a point one wanted to make or
when one has nothing to say. And to criticize something one does not agree with in irc, lists or f2f
> I would feel much more comfortable in a smaller group where i can rely
> on people, where i can rely on a group that wants to keep things going
The issue at stake is something concerning some 150 or more imcs with definitely more than 10,000 ppl
hoping to be an alternative space for almost 5billion people in the world. I think 117 members in the
lists of a global network that expands across all continents with dozens of imcs in some countries is
> in solidarity,
My 2 cents
Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
More information about the New-imc