[New-imc] [Cmi-venezuela] (en)+(es-robot) Re: (en) only sorry - Re: Indymedia Venezuela

Wed Apr 26 17:40:23 PDT 2006

(english below)

Hola todos de new-imc,

soy dri de indy brasil. algun de vosotros ya me conoscen pues estuve e na
la lista de new-imc por un tiempo. estoy dipuesta a volver a new-imc para
ayudar el processo de indy venezuela juntamente con otr at s de indy brasil.

Hi boud and new-imc folks

here is dri from imc brasil. Some of yu already know me since I was an
active volunteer in the new-imc list a cupple of years ago. I volunteered
toget back to hte new-imc list to help the indy venezuela process
toghether with other pple from imc-brasil.

saludos,

dri

> hola los amig at s
>
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, malegria wrote:
>
>> PS: Are there spanish speakers on new-imc? I think to really establish y
>> fair contact between the local IMC an the new-imc list it is necessary
>> to have the future communication in spanish since not all or only some
>> of the people here speak english.
>
> (en)
> i'm only answering because nobody else answered...  Which also was a
> reason why i initially answered only to malegria - i don't want to force
> people to read English...
>
> new-imc people: is someone spanish-speaking able to help?
>
> Anyway, responding to the other threads:
>
> (es)
> Estoy contestando solamente porque nadie contestó... Cuál también era
> una razón por la que contesté inicialmente solamente al malegria - yo
> no desee forzar a gente leer inglés...
>
> gente nueva-imc: ¿puede alguien de habla hispana ayudar?
>
> De todas formas, respondiendo a los otros hilos de rosca:
>
>
>> Hi boud, hi new-imc people,
>>
>> thanks for your answer. I think that helps.
>>
>>> Since noone has answered you after nearly a week, i think that probably
>>> means that nobody active in new-imc is presently involved, though i
>>> seem
>>> to remember gaba was helping (maybe a year or so ago?).
>>
>> I think nobody from the new-imc list has been in contact with us
>> recently.
>>
>>> There are two different requests older than two years ago:
>>> https://contact.indymedia.org/new_imc.php
>>>                                              applied     modified
>>> Venezuela           latin america  requested 0000-00-00  2003-08-29
>>> Venezuela Indimedia latin america  requested 2003-10-09  2003-11-18
>>
>> Ok, I read about that too and I think that by now the majority of the
>> people involved in the Indymedia Venezuela process has changed.
>
> (en)
> OK, in that case, i think you should fill out the newimc.indymedia.org
> form again (NOT newlist.indymedia.org - this was my error).
>
> i'll ask  imc-commwork at lists.indymedia.org  if someone can delete the
> old entries and point them to this discussion:
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2006-April/thread.html
>
> (es)
> OK, en que el caso, yo piensa que usted debe completar la forma de
> newimc.indymedia.org otra vez (NO newlist.indymedia.org - éste era mi
> error).
>
> Pediré el imc-commwork en lists.indymedia.org si alguien puede
> suprimir las viejas entradas y señalarlas a esta discusión:
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2006-April/thread.html
>
>
>>> i think it's important that local groups keep their contact database
>>> info up-to-date, so i suggest that when the twiki comes back, the
>>> general and tech contact people for the "new new" collective (since
>>> the "old new" collective didn't get organised) should fill out the
>>> initial contact form and *keep the contact databse login/password*
>>> somewhere safe:
>>>
>>> http://newlist.indymedia.org
>
> (en) My error: this should be   http://newimc.indymedia.org
>
> but this points to the twiki (docs.indymedia.org) and the twiki has been
> down for several days. :(
>
> (es)
> Mi error: éste debe ser http://newimc.indymedia.org
>
> pero esto señala al twiki (docs.indymedia.org) y el twiki ha estado
> abajo por varios días :(
>
>
>
>> That means that we start a third try? Or would it be possible to just
>> update the database information with the actually involved people? Since
>> we already have that mailinglist it wouldn't make that much sense to
>> apply for a new one right? Is it possible to find out who are the actual
>
> i agree - no need to change the mailing list.
>
> convengo - Ninguna necesidad de cambiar la lista que envía.
>
>> responsibles/contact persons? I will also ask that at the cmi-venezuela
>> list.
>
> (en) Contact person for the database and mailing list admins are totally
> separate (technically, anyway).
>
> contact database:
> - info somewhere on the twiki (down right now)
> (start from Global/NewImcHowTo when it's back up)
> - email contact with the contact database people:
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-commwork
>
> mailing list admins:
> See the bottom of:
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cmi-venezuela
> Cmi-venezuela la administra dri at indymedia.org, rodoarico at cantv.net
>
> As a matter of principle, you should probably get a second local person
> as admin, maybe even a third (i assume rodoarico is in venezuela) - just
> for the principle of political balance, avoiding power in the hands of any
> individual.
>
> (es) La persona del contacto para la base de datos y los admins de la
> lista
> que envían son totalmente separados (técnico, de todas formas).
>
> base de datos del contacto:
> - Info en alguna parte en el contacto del
> email del twiki (abajo ahora) (comienzo de Global/NewImcHowTo cuando
> es de reserva)
> - con la gente de la base de datos del contacto:
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-commwork
>
> admins de la lista que envían:
> Vea el fondo de:
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cmi-venezuela
> Cmi-venezuela la administra dri at indymedia.org, rodoarico at cantv.net
>
> Como cuestión de principio, usted debe conseguir probablemente a una
> segunda persona local como admin, iguala quizá un tercero (asumo que
> el rodoarico está en Venezuela) - apenas para el principio del
> equilibrio político, evitando poder en las manos del individuo.
>
>
>> I might be a "helper" (although I'm not sure what that means) and yes I
>
> It means someone who helps. :)
>
>
>> am part of the IMC Venezuela right now. But maybe I'm not the best
>> person for that job, because I'll be here in Venezuela for no more than
>> four more months. I'm originally from Germany where I work with the
>> Indymedia collective. I'll talk to the people here and we'll see. But it
>
> Well, i think you've de facto become a new-imc person, at least for
> imc venezuela :). With people like dri from brazil and you from imc
> germany,
> this means that we do have good people-to-people contact horizontally
> between "old" imcs and the new one.
>
> If you like, you can subscribe to new-imc (IMHO the above counts
> as your roll call).
>
>> would definitely be good to get access to the contact information and
>> the List administration.
>
> (en) See above:
>
> * imc-commwork for contact database - since the twiki is down, my guess
> is maybe email imc-commwork if you're unwilling to wait for the
> http://newimc.indymedia.org  form to come back online
>
> * dri is one of your list admins, so you can ask him/her to add emails
> of any new admins you (collective you) want and to give them the
> password (and/or change the password if necessary)
>
> (es) Vea arriba:
>
> * imc-commwork para la base de datos del contacto - puesto que el
>    twiki está abajo, mi conjetura es quizá imc-commwork del email si
>    usted es poco dispuesto esperar la forma de
>    http://newimc.indymedia.org para volverse en línea
>
> * dri es uno de sus admins de la lista, así que usted puede pedir
>    él-la agregue los email de cualquier nuevo admins que usted
>    (colectivo usted) desee y darle la contraseña (y/o cambiar la
>    contraseña en caso de necesidad)
>
>
>> Is there already a wiki for the local IMC? If
>
> (en) i don't remember - when the twiki is back, look at
>   https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/
> and search (ctrl-f) for "venezuela".
>
> (es) no recuerdo - cuando el twiki está detrás, mirada en
> https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ y la búsqueda (ctrl-f) para
> "Venezuela".
>
>> not, is it possible to set one up?
>
> Certainly :), once the twiki is back...
>
> Ciertamente:), una vez que el twiki esté detrás...
>
>
>> We're also in contact with a couple of people from the IMC Brasil (taka,
>> alex zapa, dri) who were here in Caracas during the World Social Forum
>> in January. They offered us help and also space on their server to run a
>> sample mir and stuff.
>
> (en)
> Great :). But please remember, that it's important to get local
> consensus on the people side of things.
>
> [And for the tech side, my own personal preference is for software
> which already or soon will have some wiki component (such as samizdat,
> using by belarus.indymedia.org, ukraine.indymedia.org) - there's a
> list of software at https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel/ - anyway,
> you might want to ask taka, alex zapa and dri of their opinions on
> this, but it's just a personal suggestion, and it's certainly not
> (yet) a strong consensus opinion.]
>
>
> (es)
> Grande :). Pero recuerde por favor, eso que es importante conseguir
> consenso local en el lado de la gente de cosas.
>
> [Y para el lado del tech, mi propia preferencia personal está para el
> software que ya o pronto tendrá un cierto componente de wiki (tal como
> samizdat, usando por belarus.indymedia.org, ukraine.indymedia.org) -
> allí es una lista del software en
> https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel/ - de todos modos, usted puede
> ser que desee pedir taka, alex zapa y dri de sus opiniones
> sobre esto, pero es justo una sugerencia personal, y no es ciertamente
> (todavía) una opinión fuerte del consenso.]
>
>
>>>> b) What are the missing steps that we have to take to be affiliated to
>>>> the Indymedia Network?
>>>
>>> Well, IMHO all the standard things about getting organised and
>>> consensing on responses to the * PrinciplesOfUnity and
>>> * MembershipCriteria which are 1. and 3. listed here:
>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/cmi-venezuela/2006-March/0316-t7.html
>>> * and an editorial policy * and a description of decision-making
>>> method(s)
>>>
>>> Also
>>> * mission statement * liaison on imc-process mailing list
>>> * contacts on e.g. imc-latina, imc-communication, ... mailing lists
>>
>> And we have to write all that stuff and send it to the new-imc list?
>
> (en)
>
> Well, it's rather you "are requested and recommended to" rather than
> "have to". The "real decision" is taken on imc-process, and if you have
> not provided answers to how the group feels about the various questions,
> then many other local IMCs would probably be uncomfortable with the
> proposal.
>
> Anyway, the more difficult part is getting people to actually read
> through and discuss and come to consensus on *what* their responses
> are to these issues. Some of them may be easy, some may require a lot
> of discussion.
>
> (es)
>
> Bien, es usted "se solicita algo y recomendado" más bien que "tenga
> que". La "decisión verdadera" se adquiere imc-process, y si usted no
> ha proporcionado respuestas a cómo el grupo se siente sobre las varias
> preguntas, después mucho el otro IMCs local sería probablemente
> incómodo con la oferta ("proposal").
>
> De todas formas, la parte más difícil está consiguiendo a gente leer
> realmente a través y discutir y venir al consenso encendido *qué*
> sus respuestas están a estas temas. Algunas de ellas pueden ser
> fáciles, algunos pueden requerir muchos de la discusión.
>
>
>>> But IMHO the most important thing given the Venezuelan situation is
>>> that the collective should be a sustainable, open, participative
>>> cooperation between both individuals and groups including the massive
>>> networks of grassroots "pro-Chavez/bolivarian circles" groups doing
>>> local, independent media and the "anarchists" who are concerned about
>>> the links with the State and dependence on Chavez.
>>
>> As far as I can judge on that issue, the collective is open. There are
>> people from different tendencies and groups and I think the group is
>> open for whoever wants to work with it. This discussion on that topic
>> made that the process of Indymedia Venezuela hasn't made much progress,
>> but it seems that the people of the different groups are willing to
>> "accept the terms".
>
> (es)
>
> Well, this is where it's important to have the various documents in
> writing (electronic and/or printed) about what "terms" are "accepted".
>
> Consensing on the wording of the answer to the PoU and MembershipCriteria,
> and writing down the editorial policy and mission statement will help
> people be clear on what (limited) things they agree on. It's also
> useful for new people joining in.
>
> (es)
>
> Bien, aquí es donde está importante tener los varios documentos en la
> escritura (electrónico e impreso) sobre lo que "llama" "se
> aceptan".
>
> Al consenso en la fraseología de la respuesta al PoU y al
> MembershipCriteria, y la escritura abajo de la declaración de la
> política editorial y de la misión ayudarán a poblar estén claros en en
> lo que convienen las cosas (limitadas) ellas. Es también útil para la
> nueva gente que ensambla adentro.
>
>
>>> If i understand correctly, you are present in Caracas right now, so
>>> you are doing more than just electronic facilitation. Is this right?
>>
>> Yes, I'm in Caracas since summer of 2005. But as I said I'm going to go
>> back to Germany in a couple of months.
>
> Typical new collectives take several months from initial contact to
> consensing on their documents and sending them to new-imc.
>
> Los collectives nuevos típicos llevan varios meses del contacto
> inicial consensing en sus documentos y enviarlos a nuevo-imc.
>
>
>>> From what i remember, the different points of view (POV), of course,
>>> oversimplified, are:
>>>
>>> "anarchist" POV (nodo50.org, contrapoder.org.ve):
>>> - "pro-Chavez/bolivarian circles" groups are too state-like, military,
>>> etc
>>>
>>> "pro-Chavez/bolivarian circles" POV (aporrea.org,
>>> venezuelanalysis.org):
>>> - "anarchists" are a tiny group of bourgeois active on the internet,
>>> while the "bolivarian revolution" groups doing alternative media are a
>>> huge, genuine, grassroots media network
>>>
>>> (Please note that i wrote "of course, oversimplified" - i'm not saying
>>> here that either description is correct; the aim is only to describe
>>> how i think local people view the situation.)
>>
>> I think that is, simplyfied, more or less correct.
>
> OK.
>
>>> But the need for media to be non-hierarchical and independent of
>>> central control and self-organising and to encourage use of free
>>> (libre) software also cannot be denied.
>>
>> I think the people involved are aware of that.
>>
>> Ok, I think that's it for the moment. I'll talk with the IMC people and
>> get back to you.
>
> Great :).  If you like, you can subscribe to new-imc and consider
> yourself a new-imc helper. Or if someone in the role of new-imc helper
> who speaks spanish can help, i'll be able to stop spamming the
> cmi-venezuela list in English translated to Spanish through a non-free
> (zero cost, but politically non-free) web service...
>
> Our archive is public of course, you can see our discussion here:
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2006-April/thread.html
>
>
> solidaridad
> boud_______________________________________________
> Cmi-venezuela mailing list
> Cmi-venezuela at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cmi-venezuela
>

    ,           ,
   / ,           \
  / / ,  ,-,  , \ \
 ( ( (  (   )  ) ) )
  \ \ '  '-'  ' / /
   \    ______   /
    '  |_    /  '
        /   /
      _/   /_
     /______/
www.indymedia.org
www.midiaindependente.org