[New-imc] private abuse from jenka Re: www-features Digest, Vol 39, Issue 13 (fwd)

[boud]

hi jenka,

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, sing and dance wrote:

> (i would prefer not to cc: this to new-imc, as i think it is
> irrelevant to the list, but since boud insisted i do so, here you
> go....)

In new-imc, we trust each other to state our disagreements
constructively and publicly.

> boud wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> Please remember that we are trying to build a real, grassroots,
>> non-hierarchical media network.  Please also look on a map and find
>> out where Cyprus is. It's a lot closer to Palestine than Washington,
>> D.C. is.
>>
>> salamat
>> boud
>
> dear boud,

> you're in cyprus?  i thought you were with imc-india.....i'm
> confused, which imc are you with?

No, petros is with IMC Cyprus. Most of my facilitation has been in trying
to follow up concerns from petros.

i'm in IMC Poland, where i live, though i have helped with some non-USA
imc's, including the 2nd/3rd generations of imc india:
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcIndia

> i am just tired of having to defend, over and over, the most
> committed and non-hierarchical and open group of media activists
> i've met in palestine, to people who aren't even here and don't even
> know the people they are insisting be given power.  the first
> 'principle of unity' is that local indymedias be autonomous, and
> locally-run.

You seem to be confused:

(1) There is no question of having to "defend" IMEMC/PNN, it's a
matter of communication and explanation. Nobody (certainly neither petros 
nor i) have attacked anyone in IMEMC/PNN (apart from petros being worried
about the roles of internationals).

Are you claiming that petros' question (and my agreeing that it's a
reasonable concern) about the employer/employee/hierarchical
relationship in IMEMC is "an attack"?

If yes, then how can you claim that IMEMC/PNN is non-hierarchical while
also claiming that a question about hierarchy is "an attack"?

(2) The idea is *not* to give total power to new people, it's to *share*
power among different palestinians. By definition, of course, at the
beginning, the people in "the core group" do not know the "new" people.
So there needs to be a process of communication, getting to know each 
other, and so on.

Moreover, the fact that you say that you/IMEMC/PNN "don't even know
the people" (these are your words) means that there is a lack of
communication and knowing each other between different activist groups
in Palestine. So while there's no doubt that IMEMC/PNN are "the most
committed and non-hierarchical and open group of media activists" who
you, jenka, have met in Palestine, couldn't it be possible for them to
be open to other groups and individuals whom you have not (yet) met
among the 4-5 million Palestinians living in West Bank/Gaza?

Wouldn't wide networking and development of decision-making processes
and so on between various groups and individuals in Palestine (and
also international supporters) be a good idea for an indymedia
collective?

(3) As local new-imc helper to the group, you could have encouraged
the group to respond to petros' questions on the imc-palestine mailing
list, instead of leaving it inactive after all the effort petros and i
went to to sort out the initial confusion about creating a "safe
electronic space" (mailing list) for talking to each other. It's not
about *you* defending the group - it's about the individuals, and not
just The Director, talking directly to each other, to other
palestinians and talking directly to someone from one of the
neighbouring IMC's (Cyprus) without having to go through "an
international".


>  well, you may be disappointed to realize that in fact i'm not
> attempting to abuse or manipulate you, or anyone else.  i am tired

AFAIR i have never claimed that you have been *intentionally* trying
to manipulate me. i've said that i disagree with petros on this and i
asked him to apologise for suggesting that you (or other
internationals, petros didn't name you explicitly) are trying to
manipulate the palestinians. My feeling is that the abusive email you
sent me was sent *despite* the best intentions on your part. You're
clearly taking high personal risks by living in Palestine (you might
be killed by a "defensive, high-precision" US-built "pro-democracy"
missile and almost certainly you will have/already have had friends or
friends of friends who have been killed) and, of course, the situation
is undoubtedly stressful.

i also don't understand why you say "you [boud] may be
disappointed". None of us want to be manipulative, nor do we want to
believe that others are manipulative. On the other hand, most of live
in hierarchical, abusive socio-political environments and it's quite
possible that many of us in indymedia (e.g. in new-imc)
unintentionally use manipulative techniques. This is the whole point
of trying to develop non-hierarchical techniques and to learn from
groups who say they already have experience in these, e.g. 
http://www.consensus.net


> all of this is irrelevant anyway, as i believe that imemc/pnn and
> the assorted other folks that put together this proposal are
> withdrawing their application....  but they will be submitting that
> withdrawal themselves to the new-imc list when they decide for
> sure.....

Please read the archives of the imc-palestine list, since you seem to
have missed my last two emails to the list regarding facilitation of 
the process:

boud
Fri Jul 21 11:27:10 PDT 2006
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-palestine/2006-July/0721-60.html
| For personal reasons of time commitment, i am going to stop
| contributing to facilitation issues on the list. i am satisfied that
| the imc-palestine mailing list is now under the control of
| palestinians.  Moreover, by leaving the facilitation to other people,
| the issue will be (at least partially) depersonalised.

boud
Fri Jul 21 11:34:29 PDT 2006
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-palestine/2006-July/0721-d1.html
| Anyway, i wish the newly-forming palestine collective all the best
| and will shortly unsubscribe from the list (voluntarily)


If the imemc/pnn wish to "withdraw" their application because of a
perception that i (boud) have asked uncomfortable questions, then i
think you are misleading imemc/pnn people regarding non-hierarchical
networking and power relations. i am no longer facilitating imc
palestine discussion, so imemc/pnn people will have to communicate
with other palestinians and with new-imc on the imc-palestine list
helpers there (yourself, petros, maybe someone else?) without my
hindrance/help.

So "boud" is no longer "an obstacle" to IMEMC/PNN together with other
palestinians becoming accepted as IMC Palestine by the indymedia network.


>  now, if you'll please excuse me, i need to go follow up on the
> report of the sixteen more people that israeli forces killed in
> their home just now.

On the other hand, once again i recommend you check where Cyprus is.
IMHO solidarity between the IMCs in the region - Cyprus, Beirut,
Palestine and Israel - is surely a factor which will help in
distribution of the news about Israeli army barbarity to the world and
will help in gaining local legitimacy for these IMCs.  petros does
sometimes make some mistakes, and does tend to write rather long
emails. But AFAIR he has never gotten angry at my mentioning what i
believe is an error on his part (including my suggestion that he
apologise to you) - he may disagree, but he doesn't get angry. And
while reading long emails is time-consuming, communication in general
is something time-consuming - 30 second soundbites are not real news.

If you could start a constructive conversation with petros, or even
better, encourage local palestinians to constructively discuss with
him, publicly on the imc-palestine list (and that includes
resubscribing him, or at least asking him to resubscribe), making
specific, clear, calm comments about points on which you disagree with
him, then i'm sure there would a constructive evolution of the situation.

In any case, i'm not facilitating this anymore - beit sahour and other
palestine people have to communicate with the network either directly
or through other facilitators.

solidarity
boud