[www-editoriales] Re: [www-features] PROPOSAL VENEZUELA:

Blackbeard txinsurrection at riseup.net
Thu Sep 2 16:42:31 PDT 2004


[en]
i completely support these proposals.

[es]
apoyo estas propuestas completamente.

bb

> [castellano abajo...]
> [english]
> CAN WE PLEASE REACH A CONSENSUS HERE:
>
> Being here in Venezuela, I propose that the two features (Venezuelan
> Popular
> Assemblies and Texaco-Microsoft) go up. I think is is important to expose
> these texaco-micrsoft deals because they are happening under the guise of
> "progress".
>
> (the Popular Assemblies article in spanish can be found at:
> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
> can someone translate it to english when the site is running again?)
>
> I have taken time to re-write (in english and spanish) the proposed
> feature
> by imc brazil. it is now, in my opinion, objective and is not pushing
> personal agendas, so... again, from venezuela, I propose that it DOES go
> up
> IN THIS VERSION along the Popular Assemblies article:
>
> Venezuela, Texaco and Microsoft
>
> Despite all the efforts from the popular movements to deepen the
> Bolivarian
> Revolution of Venezuela, the government, with the approval of president
> Hugo
> Chavés Frias, made 2 partnership with the multinational companies
> Chevron-Texaco and Microsoft (more contracts with Repsol and other
> corporations have also been signed) . Both agreements were signed before
> the
> referedum took place, but with the focus on the electoral process,
> criticism
> from the popular movements was minimal.
>
> One of the contracts is a binacional gasoduto sponsored by the governments
> of Venezuela and Colombia, and coordinated by the USian multinational
> Chevron-Texaco. Acording to Chavéz, it´s a “direct way out to the giant
> asian market”. By constructing the gasoduto, Venezuela volunteers to enter
> in the Plan Puebla Panamá, a collection of infrastructure with the
> objective
> to respond to the USian multinationals needs.
>
> Parallel to that, the Venezuelan government, via the education ministry,
> signed a contract with Microsoft to provide software to the schools across
> the country, contradicting the incentive policy of free software, which
> the
> government was adopting until Felipe Péres left the Planification and
> Development Ministry. According to Richard Stallman, the founder of the
> GNU
> movement (free software): “The Venezuelan government just made a critical
> error, which consequences will give control of computing to a global
> corporation: make a contract with Microsoft to use the program in the
> schools.”
> After the victory in the referendum, the popular movements are now trying
> to
> accelerate the process they call "Revolution within the Revolution",
> precisely to fight against deals like these and the abuses of the
> power-hungry "bolivarian" political parties. The  balance of forces is
> still
> very tight in Venezuela, and in many ways Chavez is trapped between the
> revolutionary currents and the neoliberal elements within the government
> that could bring the country down if they join forces with the
> counter-revolution. Venezuelan popular movements must engage in
> revolutionary offensive; the processes of joint popular rebellion in the
> continent must accelerate; and international support for the autonomous
> movements of the Bolivarian Revolution must grow, because Microsoft,
> Texaco
> and the global bourgeoisie have no real problem in negotiating with the
> "revolutionary bureaucracy" of Venezuela.
>
> (in Spanish below)
> ----
> [castellano]
>
> POR FAVOR LLEGUEMOS A UN CONSENSO:
> Estando aqui en Venezuela PROPONGO que suban los dos artículos (el de las
> Asambleas Populares y el Texaco-Microsoft). Este segundo tiene información
> importante que debe ser expuesta pero de forma objetiva.
>
> Me tome el tiempo de re-escribir (en inglés y castellano) el articulo
> propuesto por imc brasil. en mi opinion, ahora esta escrito de forma
> objetiva y no empuja agendas personales. Propongo entonces que SUBA ESTA
> VERSION junto al artículo de las Asambleas Populares:
>
> Venezuela, Texaco y Microsoft
>
> Brasil 31.08.2004
>
> A pesar de los efuerzos por parte de los movimientos populares en
> profundizar la Revolución Bolivariana de Venezuela, el gobierno de este
> país, con la autorización del presidente Hugo Chávez, firmó dos contratos
> con las multinacionales Chevron-Texaco y Microsoft (además de otros
> contratos con Repsol y otras corporaciones del capitalismo global). Ambos
> tratados se firmaron antes del referendum, pero con la atención puesta
> sobre
> la contienda electoral, la resistencia por parte de los movimientos
> populares fue mínima.
>
> Uno de los contratos es un gasoducto binacional patrocinado por los
> gobiernos de Colombia y Venezuela, con la supervisión de la multinacional
> estadounidense Chevron-Texaco. Según Chávez, "es una salida directa a ese
> inmenso mercado asiátic". Al construir este gasoducto, Venezuela estará
> ingresando voluntariamente al Plan Puebla Panamá, un plan de desarrollo
> continental con el objetivo de montar la infraestructura que suplan las
> necesidades de las corporaciones del capital multinacional.
>
> Paralelo a esto, el gobierno venezolano, a través del Ministerio de
> Educación, firmó un contrato con Microsoft para que esta le provea el
> software a las escuelas de todo el país y los estudiantes se entrenen en
> este sistema. Este contrato entra en clara contradicción con la política
> incentiva del software libre que venía impulsando Felipe Pérez durante su
> gestión como Ministro de Planificación y Desarrollo. Según Richard
> Stallman,
> el fundador del movimiento Pro-Software-Libre: "El gobierno venezolano
> acaba
> de cometer una grave error, cuyas consecuencias le darán el control de la
> computación a una corporación global."
>
> Tras la victoria en el referendum, los movimientos populares están
> tratando
> de acelerar el proceso de "Revolución en la Revolución", precisamente para
> combatir contra tratados como estos y los abusos de los partidos políticos
> "bolivarianos". La correlación de
> fuerzas en Venezuela es todavía muy frágil, y Chávez se encuentra atrapado
> entre la corriente verdaderamente revolucionaria y los elementos
> neoliberales en el gobierno que, de unirse a la contra-revolución, podrían
> poner al país de rodillas en muy poco tiempo. Los movimientos populares en
> Venezuela deben entrar en ofensiva revolucionaria; los procesos de
> rebelión
> continental conjunta deben acelerarse; y el apoyo internacional hacia los
> movimientos autónomos de la Revolución Bolivariana debe crecer, porque
> Microsoft, Texaco y la burguesía global no tienen ningún problema en
> negociar con la "burocracia revolucionaria" de Venezuela.
> ---
> (el articulo de las Asambleas Populares se encuentra en:
> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
> (alguién puede traducitlo al inglés una vez que la página esté funcionando
> de nuevo?)
>
> hasta la victoria siempre
> marcelo
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> here
>
>> I have the same opinion of some lefty politicians. That's not the thing
>> of that feature.
>>
>> ... It's a principle having consensus in the collectives before posting
>> a feature in each imc, that's how it works in Puerto Rico and many
>> other imcs. Maybe it's not fundamental to have consensus on a feature
>> proposed by an imc collective for global... but here in features, i
>> have learned that hell yes, because is a thing that involves all of us
>> in this project.
>>
>> If it is necessary to reach consensus in local imcs for posted
>> features, i expect the same for global features.
>>
>> Solidaridad plena.
>>
>> CGC
>>
>>> Well, we have got politicians here from e.g. the socialist party who
>>> travel
>>> to Venezuela to blind the people here that a "revolution via voting"
>>> would be possible and exploit Chavez and the Bolivarian revolution
>>> that way. Not to say that the same politicians - and other leaders of
>>> this party called locally several times the police to arrest
>>> protesters when there was e.g. the Poll Tax Riot or last years
>>> anti-war protests.
>>>
>>> It would be nice if people in Venezuela understand, too, that some
>>> (lefty) politicians try to lure disillusioned potential voters back
>>> into reformist representative parliamentary politics by giving Chavez
>>> as an example and glorifying him and his politics.
>>>
>>> As about consenus in the proposing collective; I am not sure if every
>>> proposal here is proposed via consensus in an indymedia collective; I
>>> was not aware that this would be a fundamental demand to make a
>>> feature proposal as it seemed that individuals were able to put in
>>> proposals, too.
>>>
>>> Have never really asked the local collectives here before for a
>>> consenus for a feature, but don't think there would have been a
>>> problem though, but would still be interested if that is an underlying
>>> condition for proposing features?
>>>
>>> ciao Ulla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT), César Gerena
>>> <gerenapr at riseup.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ask yourself the intentions of a feature that does not even had
>>>> consensus
>>>> in brasil colletive...
>>>>
>>>> chevron feature is not just info to pass on, the editorial opinions,
>>>> the ideological opinions are not shared by the majority of comrades
>>>> that have
>>>> expressed here.
>>>>
>>>> no superstars, no gods, no personal agendas.
>>>>
>>>> solidaridad plena.
>>>> G
>>>>
>>>>> forgive me to be stupid but can one person explain once what's the
>>>>> problem here?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> people in venezuela had choise between capitalists and chavez, is
>>>>> that democratic than? so why there can not be critic on cahvez than:
>>>>> is he something more than human than, a superstar without faults, a
>>>>> hero, somekind of GOD?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> getting ennoyed by this discussion...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> greetings, guidoke
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 23:19, César Gerena wrote:
>>>>>> [en]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The info in the microsoft chevron feature is good, but the opinions
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> editorial lines are not and does not reflects the opinion of many,
>>>>>> thats
>>>>>> been clearly expressed here. There is no consensus for it. The new
>>>>>> proposed feature is vital information of the process the social
>>>>>> movements
>>>>>> are calling for a change a profundization of the process and
>>>>>> rebeling against government's bureaucracy and corruption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [es]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> La información en el destaque de chevron y microsoft es buena,
>>>>>> pero las
>>>>>> opiniones editoriales no lo son y no representan el sentir de la
>>>>>> mayoria,
>>>>>> eso ha sido claramente expresado aquí. La nueva propuesta contiene
>>>>>> buena
>>>>>> y
>>>>>> vital información para analizar el proceso en el que los
>>>>>> movimientos sociales claman por un cambio y profundización del
>>>>>> proceso
>>>>>> bolivariano
>>>>>> y
>>>>>> su rebelión contra la burocracia y corrupción en el gobierno.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GerenaPR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > [en]
>>>>>> > i believe the best would be like marcelo said - i think it was
>>>>>> > him -
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> > have both up..not one with a link to another..specially cuz one
>>>>>> > is
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> > the social moviments and the other is about the government work
>>>>>> > [pt]
>>>>>> > eu acredito que o melhor seria como o marcelo disse - eu acho q
>>>>>> > foi
>>>>>> ele -
>>>>>> > ter os dois no site.. nao apenas um com um link para o
>>>>>> > outro..especialmente porque um eh sobre os movimentos populares e
>>>>>> outro
>>>>>> > sobre o trabalho do governo
>>>>>> > ciao
>>>>>> > toya
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> [en]
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> We support this feature, critic, analitical, not reactionary,
>>>>>> >> not
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> >> personal agendas.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [es]
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Apoyamos este destaque, critico, analítico, no reaccionario,
>>>>>> >> sin
>>>>>> agendas
>>>>>> >> personales.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Salud y subversiones.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> GerenaPR
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> [castellano bellow]
>>>>>> >>> [english]
>>>>>> >>> Trying to reach a consensus, From Venezuela we propose the
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> >>> article
>>>>>> >>> as feature: "Popular Assemblies Call For Revolution Within the
>>>>>> >>> Revolution".
>>>>>> >>> it hasn't been translated, but it talks about the popular
>>>>>> assemblies
>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>> >>> are taking place around different parts of the country rebeling
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>> >>> "revolutionary bureaucracy imposed by certain parties.
>>>>>> >>> check out:
>>>>>> >>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> [castellano]
>>>>>> >>> Para tratar de llegar a un consenso, desde Venezuela proponemos
>>>>>> >>> el siguiente
>>>>>> >>> articulo para un feautre en la global: "Asambleas Populares
>>>>>> Plantean
>>>>>> >>> Revolucion dentro de la Revolucion"
>>>>>> >>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> falta traducirlo al inglés, pero creemos que es crucial que se
>>>>>> difunda,
>>>>>> >>> en
>>>>>> >>> todo caso, lo que pueblo está organizando en rebelión contra
>>>>>> >>> las partidocracias "revolucionarias" que quieren dominarlo
>>>>>> >>> todo.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> saludos
>>>>>> >>> marcelo
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> A number of comrades have raised criticisms of me for posting
>>>>>> >>>> the feature "Venezuela: Between Empire and Revolution" without
>>>>>> consensus.
>>>>>> >>>> I cannot change the past but I would at least like to review
>>>>>> >>>> my account
>>>>>> >>>> of what happened...
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Aug 11
>>>>>> >>>> - Proposal sent to the list, written by Venezuelan comrades -
>>>>>> >>>> Evan raised concern that feature seemed pro-Chavez in places,
>>>>>> citing
>>>>>> >>>> a particular sentence which was removed from the final
>>>>>> >>>> version.
>>>>>> Also
>>>>>> >>>> claimed the proposal came from "English-speaking" world
>>>>>> >>>> - bb pointed out that feature came from Venezuela, and
>>>>>> >>>> deferred
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>>> them
>>>>>> >>>> to answer concerns
>>>>>> >>>> Aug 12
>>>>>> >>>> - marcelo posted to list explaining their positions, and
>>>>>> expressing
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> >>>> urgent need to have the feature posted, "emergency situation,"
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> >>>> libertario posted stock critique of chavez, did not address
>>>>>> feature
>>>>>> >>>> per
>>>>>> >>>> se - deva demands that feature be posted "immediately"
>>>>>> >>>> - jeppe urged collective to post feature "today" and forwarded
>>>>>> >>>> translation of it to frech speaking lists.
>>>>>> >>>> - ekes said feature should go up "as soon as possible"
>>>>>> >>>> - bb agreed that feature should go up asap and offered to make
>>>>>> posting
>>>>>> >>>> with modification of sentence pointed out by Evan
>>>>>> >>>> - deva wrote that disputed sentence should stay in
>>>>>> >>>> - ekes proposed links to add to story
>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas disagrees, says it should include criticisms of
>>>>>> chavez
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> >>>> marcelo request "urgent clearance" for feature to go up,
>>>>>> >>>> citing "emergency situation" imminent, possibility of
>>>>>> >>>> right-wing coup
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >>>> violence
>>>>>> >>>> - boud suggests additional links.  some, but not all, make it
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> >>>> final draft
>>>>>> >>>> - bb asks collective status on feature, whether it may go up
>>>>>> >>>> or
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> >>>> cesar gerena expresses support for feature
>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas makes counter proposal (co-written by toya &
>>>>>> >>>> pablo) http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-
>>>>>> August/0812-q8.html
>>>>>> >>>> - deva rejects brasil proposal
>>>>>> >>>> - cesar gerena also criticises brasil proposal, supports
>>>>>> >>>> venezuela-written proposal
>>>>>> >>>> - bb makes the call to post original feature, cites sense of
>>>>>> urgency.
>>>>>> >>>> offers to immediately pull it if anyone chooses to block
>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-
>>>>>> August/0812-a0.html
>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas acknowledges posting of original feature "with
>>>>>> changes"
>>>>>> >>>> made by bb. "it is better than the other." and "this is a
>>>>>> controversal
>>>>>> >>>> topic and I hope nobody got angry with this confusion."
>>>>>> >>>> - pablo agrees that posted feature is "more balanced and less
>>>>>> >>>> chavista"
>>>>>> >>>> but proposes additional links be added.
>>>>>> >>>> Fri Aug 13
>>>>>> >>>> - pina adds proposed links to feature
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> the discussion opens up again at this point.  disagreements
>>>>>> >>>> and miscommunications still exist but no one asks for it to be
>>>>>> >>>> taken
>>>>>> down,
>>>>>> >>>> and it is not until some time later, when it is far too late,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> >>>> anyone says i did anything wrong.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> consensus is not always clear, especially when dealing with
>>>>>> >>>> what
>>>>>> feels
>>>>>> >>>> like an urgent situation.  i agree process was not perfect,
>>>>>> >>>> but
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> >>>> rarely is.  i am not the first to post a feature because it
>>>>>> >>>> seems
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> >>>> people are demanding it, with the clause that it can be taken
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> >>>> anyone raises an objection.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> all i can say is i did the best i could with what i knew at
>>>>>> >>>> the
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>> >>>> i would appreciate it if others expressed how they feel about
>>>>>> this,
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> >>>> i'm feeling rather isolated at this moment.  perhaps it is
>>>>>> deserved, i
>>>>>> >>>> don't know...
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> bb
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>> >>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>> >>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> www-editoriales mailing list
>>>>>> >> www-editoriales at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-editoriales
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.fempages.org
>
>
>
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