[www-features] Re: About Venezuela-Texaco article on global

[pina at riseup.net]

[en]
hi all, i´ve already made the changes

[pt]
ola a todos, eu ja fiz as mudanças

=)
Pina



> [en]
> i want to raise my objection to something. the texaco article has been
> posted on the global, and that is good... but since the whole article is
> not
> appearing on the main site, the summary should include the last paragraph
> of
> the full article instead of the second paragraph. that is very very
> important because that last paragraph is precisely the paragraph where the
> complexities of the issue are exposed, and the summary is what everyone
> reads. so please, honoring the long discussion we had to get this feature
> up, those complexities should be clear in that summary. can someone please
> change that asap? we don't have access from here.
> thanks
> marcelo
> pd: there should also be a link to the venezuela section at imc puerto
> rico
>
> [es]
> quiero levantar mi objeción frente a algo. el artículo de texaco ha subido
> a
> la global (bien)... pero ya que todo el artículo no aparece en la pagina
> principal, el resumen debe incluir el último párrafo del artículo en
> sustitución del segundo. ese último párrafo es muy importante ya que en él
> se exponen las complejidades del asunto y es precisamente el resumen lo
> que
> todo el mundo lee. así que por favor, en honor a la larga y complicada
> discución que tuvimos para subir este feature, esas complejidades deben
> estar muy claras en el resumen. por favor, alguién puede cambiar eso lo
> antes posible? nosotr at s no tenemos acceso desde aquí.
> gracias
> marcelo
> pd: debe haber tambien un enlace a la sección de venezuela en imc puerto
> rico.
>>
>> [pt]
>> Sim, eu acredito que esta versão está ok, não é a versão que eu acho
>> que deveria subir, mas é um começo... nao tenho motivos para
>> bloquea-la... Esta versão do editorial é consenso???? eu espero que sim
>>
>> [en]
>> Yes, i think that this version is ok, is not the one i think it should
>> go up,  but is a start ... i have no reazon the block it...
>> So, is this version of the feature a consensus????? i hope so
>> =)
>> Pina
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------
>>
>>> [castellano abajo...]
>>> [english]
>>> CAN WE PLEASE REACH A CONSENSUS HERE:
>>>
>>> Being here in Venezuela, I propose that the two features (Venezuelan
>>> Popular
>>> Assemblies and Texaco-Microsoft) go up. I think is is important to
>>> expose these texaco-micrsoft deals because they are happening under
>>> the guise of "progress".
>>>
>>> (the Popular Assemblies article in spanish can be found at:
>>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>> can someone translate it to english when the site is running again?)
>>>
>>> I have taken time to re-write (in english and spanish) the proposed
>>> feature
>>> by imc brazil. it is now, in my opinion, objective and is not pushing
>>> personal agendas, so... again, from venezuela, I propose that it DOES
>>> go up
>>> IN THIS VERSION along the Popular Assemblies article:
>>>
>>> Venezuela, Texaco and Microsoft
>>>
>>> Despite all the efforts from the popular movements to deepen the
>>> Bolivarian
>>> Revolution of Venezuela, the government, with the approval of
>>> president Hugo
>>> Chavés Frias, made 2 partnership with the multinational companies
>>> Chevron-Texaco and Microsoft (more contracts with Repsol and other
>>> corporations have also been signed) . Both agreements were signed
>>> before the
>>> referedum took place, but with the focus on the electoral process,
>>> criticism
>>> from the popular movements was minimal.
>>>
>>> One of the contracts is a binacional gasoduto sponsored by the
>>> governments of Venezuela and Colombia, and coordinated by the USian
>>> multinational Chevron-Texaco. Acording to Chavéz, it´s a “direct way
>>> out to the giant asian market”. By constructing the gasoduto,
>>> Venezuela volunteers to enter in the Plan Puebla Panamá, a collection
>>> of infrastructure with the objective
>>> to respond to the USian multinationals needs.
>>>
>>> Parallel to that, the Venezuelan government, via the education
>>> ministry, signed a contract with Microsoft to provide software to the
>>> schools across the country, contradicting the incentive policy of free
>>> software, which the
>>> government was adopting until Felipe Péres left the Planification and
>>> Development Ministry. According to Richard Stallman, the founder of
>>> the GNU
>>> movement (free software): “The Venezuelan government just made a
>>> critical error, which consequences will give control of computing to a
>>> global corporation: make a contract with Microsoft to use the program
>>> in the schools.”
>>> After the victory in the referendum, the popular movements are now
>>> trying to
>>> accelerate the process they call "Revolution within the Revolution",
>>> precisely to fight against deals like these and the abuses of the
>>> power-hungry "bolivarian" political parties. The  balance of forces is
>>> still
>>> very tight in Venezuela, and in many ways Chavez is trapped between
>>> the revolutionary currents and the neoliberal elements within the
>>> government that could bring the country down if they join forces with
>>> the
>>> counter-revolution. Venezuelan popular movements must engage in
>>> revolutionary offensive; the processes of joint popular rebellion in
>>> the continent must accelerate; and international support for the
>>> autonomous movements of the Bolivarian Revolution must grow, because
>>> Microsoft, Texaco
>>> and the global bourgeoisie have no real problem in negotiating with
>>> the "revolutionary bureaucracy" of Venezuela.
>>>
>>> (in Spanish below)
>>> ----
>>> [castellano]
>>>
>>> POR FAVOR LLEGUEMOS A UN CONSENSO:
>>> Estando aqui en Venezuela PROPONGO que suban los dos artículos (el de
>>> las Asambleas Populares y el Texaco-Microsoft). Este segundo tiene
>>> información importante que debe ser expuesta pero de forma objetiva.
>>>
>>> Me tome el tiempo de re-escribir (en inglés y castellano) el articulo
>>> propuesto por imc brasil. en mi opinion, ahora esta escrito de forma
>>> objetiva y no empuja agendas personales. Propongo entonces que SUBA
>>> ESTA VERSION junto al artículo de las Asambleas Populares:
>>>
>>> Venezuela, Texaco y Microsoft
>>>
>>> Brasil 31.08.2004
>>>
>>> A pesar de los efuerzos por parte de los movimientos populares en
>>> profundizar la Revolución Bolivariana de Venezuela, el gobierno de
>>> este país, con la autorización del presidente Hugo Chávez, firmó dos
>>> contratos con las multinacionales Chevron-Texaco y Microsoft (además
>>> de otros contratos con Repsol y otras corporaciones del capitalismo
>>> global). Ambos tratados se firmaron antes del referendum, pero con la
>>> atención puesta sobre
>>> la contienda electoral, la resistencia por parte de los movimientos
>>> populares fue mínima.
>>>
>>> Uno de los contratos es un gasoducto binacional patrocinado por los
>>> gobiernos de Colombia y Venezuela, con la supervisión de la
>>> multinacional estadounidense Chevron-Texaco. Según Chávez, "es una
>>> salida directa a ese inmenso mercado asiátic". Al construir este
>>> gasoducto, Venezuela estará ingresando voluntariamente al Plan Puebla
>>> Panamá, un plan de desarrollo continental con el objetivo de montar la
>>> infraestructura que suplan las necesidades de las corporaciones del
>>> capital multinacional.
>>>
>>> Paralelo a esto, el gobierno venezolano, a través del Ministerio de
>>> Educación, firmó un contrato con Microsoft para que esta le provea el
>>> software a las escuelas de todo el país y los estudiantes se entrenen
>>> en este sistema. Este contrato entra en clara contradicción con la
>>> política incentiva del software libre que venía impulsando Felipe
>>> Pérez durante su gestión como Ministro de Planificación y Desarrollo.
>>> Según Richard Stallman,
>>> el fundador del movimiento Pro-Software-Libre: "El gobierno venezolano
>>> acaba
>>> de cometer una grave error, cuyas consecuencias le darán el control de
>>> la computación a una corporación global."
>>>
>>> Tras la victoria en el referendum, los movimientos populares están
>>> tratando
>>> de acelerar el proceso de "Revolución en la Revolución", precisamente
>>> para combatir contra tratados como estos y los abusos de los partidos
>>> políticos "bolivarianos". La correlación de
>>> fuerzas en Venezuela es todavía muy frágil, y Chávez se encuentra
>>> atrapado entre la corriente verdaderamente revolucionaria y los
>>> elementos neoliberales en el gobierno que, de unirse a la
>>> contra-revolución, podrían poner al país de rodillas en muy poco
>>> tiempo. Los movimientos populares en Venezuela deben entrar en
>>> ofensiva revolucionaria; los procesos de rebelión
>>> continental conjunta deben acelerarse; y el apoyo internacional hacia
>>> los movimientos autónomos de la Revolución Bolivariana debe crecer,
>>> porque Microsoft, Texaco y la burguesía global no tienen ningún
>>> problema en negociar con la "burocracia revolucionaria" de Venezuela.
>>> ---
>>> (el articulo de las Asambleas Populares se encuentra en:
>>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>> (alguién puede traducitlo al inglés una vez que la página esté
>>> funcionando de nuevo?)
>>>
>>> hasta la victoria siempre
>>> marcelo
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> here
>>>
>>>> I have the same opinion of some lefty politicians. That's not the
>>>> thing of that feature.
>>>>
>>>> ... It's a principle having consensus in the collectives before
>>>> posting a feature in each imc, that's how it works in Puerto Rico and
>>>> many other imcs. Maybe it's not fundamental to have consensus on a
>>>> feature proposed by an imc collective for global... but here in
>>>> features, i have learned that hell yes, because is a thing that
>>>> involves all of us in this project.
>>>>
>>>> If it is necessary to reach consensus in local imcs for posted
>>>> features, i expect the same for global features.
>>>>
>>>> Solidaridad plena.
>>>>
>>>> CGC
>>>>
>>>>> Well, we have got politicians here from e.g. the socialist party who
>>>>> travel
>>>>> to Venezuela to blind the people here that a "revolution via voting"
>>>>> would be possible and exploit Chavez and the Bolivarian revolution
>>>>> that way. Not to say that the same politicians - and other leaders
>>>>> of this party called locally several times the police to arrest
>>>>> protesters when there was e.g. the Poll Tax Riot or last years
>>>>> anti-war protests.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be nice if people in Venezuela understand, too, that some
>>>>> (lefty) politicians try to lure disillusioned potential voters back
>>>>> into reformist representative parliamentary politics by giving
>>>>> Chavez as an example and glorifying him and his politics.
>>>>>
>>>>> As about consenus in the proposing collective; I am not sure if
>>>>> every proposal here is proposed via consensus in an indymedia
>>>>> collective; I was not aware that this would be a fundamental demand
>>>>> to make a feature proposal as it seemed that individuals were able
>>>>> to put in proposals, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have never really asked the local collectives here before for a
>>>>> consenus for a feature, but don't think there would have been a
>>>>> problem though, but would still be interested if that is an
>>>>> underlying condition for proposing features?
>>>>>
>>>>> ciao Ulla
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT), César Gerena
>>>>> <gerenapr at riseup.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ask yourself the intentions of a feature that does not even had
>>>>>> consensus
>>>>>> in brasil colletive...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> chevron feature is not just info to pass on, the editorial
>>>>>> opinions, the ideological opinions are not shared by the majority
>>>>>> of comrades that have
>>>>>> expressed here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no superstars, no gods, no personal agendas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> solidaridad plena.
>>>>>> G
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> forgive me to be stupid but can one person explain once what's the
>>>>>>> problem here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> people in venezuela had choise between capitalists and chavez, is
>>>>>>> that democratic than? so why there can not be critic on cahvez
>>>>>>> than: is he something more than human than, a superstar without
>>>>>>> faults, a hero, somekind of GOD?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> getting ennoyed by this discussion...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> greetings, guidoke
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 23:19, César Gerena wrote:
>>>>>>>> [en]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The info in the microsoft chevron feature is good, but the
>>>>>>>> opinions and
>>>>>>>> editorial lines are not and does not reflects the opinion of
>>>>>>>> many, thats
>>>>>>>> been clearly expressed here. There is no consensus for it. The
>>>>>>>> new proposed feature is vital information of the process the
>>>>>>>> social movements
>>>>>>>> are calling for a change a profundization of the process and
>>>>>>>> rebeling against government's bureaucracy and corruption.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [es]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> La información en el destaque de chevron y microsoft es buena,
>>>>>>>> pero las
>>>>>>>> opiniones editoriales no lo son y no representan el sentir de la
>>>>>>>> mayoria,
>>>>>>>> eso ha sido claramente expresado aquí. La nueva propuesta
>>>>>>>> contiene buena
>>>>>>>> y
>>>>>>>> vital información para analizar el proceso en el que los
>>>>>>>> movimientos sociales claman por un cambio y profundización del
>>>>>>>> proceso
>>>>>>>> bolivariano
>>>>>>>> y
>>>>>>>> su rebelión contra la burocracia y corrupción en el gobierno.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GerenaPR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > [en]
>>>>>>>> > i believe the best would be like marcelo said - i think it was
>>>>>>>> > him -
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> > have both up..not one with a link to another..specially cuz one
>>>>>>>> > is
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> > the social moviments and the other is about the government work
>>>>>>>> > [pt]
>>>>>>>> > eu acredito que o melhor seria como o marcelo disse - eu acho q
>>>>>>>> > foi
>>>>>>>> ele -
>>>>>>>> > ter os dois no site.. nao apenas um com um link para o
>>>>>>>> > outro..especialmente porque um eh sobre os movimentos populares
>>>>>>>> > e
>>>>>>>> outro
>>>>>>>> > sobre o trabalho do governo
>>>>>>>> > ciao
>>>>>>>> > toya
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> [en]
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> We support this feature, critic, analitical, not reactionary,
>>>>>>>> >> not
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> >> personal agendas.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> [es]
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Apoyamos este destaque, critico, analítico, no reaccionario,
>>>>>>>> >> sin
>>>>>>>> agendas
>>>>>>>> >> personales.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Salud y subversiones.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> GerenaPR
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>> [castellano bellow]
>>>>>>>> >>> [english]
>>>>>>>> >>> Trying to reach a consensus, From Venezuela we propose the
>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>> >>> article
>>>>>>>> >>> as feature: "Popular Assemblies Call For Revolution Within
>>>>>>>> >>> the Revolution".
>>>>>>>> >>> it hasn't been translated, but it talks about the popular
>>>>>>>> assemblies
>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>> >>> are taking place around different parts of the country
>>>>>>>> >>> rebeling
>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>>> >>> "revolutionary bureaucracy imposed by certain parties.
>>>>>>>> >>> check out:
>>>>>>>> >>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> [castellano]
>>>>>>>> >>> Para tratar de llegar a un consenso, desde Venezuela
>>>>>>>> >>> proponemos el siguiente
>>>>>>>> >>> articulo para un feautre en la global: "Asambleas Populares
>>>>>>>> Plantean
>>>>>>>> >>> Revolucion dentro de la Revolucion"
>>>>>>>> >>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> falta traducirlo al inglés, pero creemos que es crucial que
>>>>>>>> >>> se
>>>>>>>> difunda,
>>>>>>>> >>> en
>>>>>>>> >>> todo caso, lo que pueblo está organizando en rebelión
>>>>>>>> >>> contra las partidocracias "revolucionarias" que quieren
>>>>>>>> >>> dominarlo todo.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> saludos
>>>>>>>> >>> marcelo
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> A number of comrades have raised criticisms of me for
>>>>>>>> >>>> posting the feature "Venezuela: Between Empire and
>>>>>>>> >>>> Revolution" without
>>>>>>>> consensus.
>>>>>>>> >>>> I cannot change the past but I would at least like to review
>>>>>>>> >>>> my account
>>>>>>>> >>>> of what happened...
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> Aug 11
>>>>>>>> >>>> - Proposal sent to the list, written by Venezuelan comrades
>>>>>>>> >>>> - Evan raised concern that feature seemed pro-Chavez in
>>>>>>>> >>>> places,
>>>>>>>> citing
>>>>>>>> >>>> a particular sentence which was removed from the final
>>>>>>>> >>>> version.
>>>>>>>> Also
>>>>>>>> >>>> claimed the proposal came from "English-speaking" world - bb
>>>>>>>> >>>> pointed out that feature came from Venezuela, and deferred
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> >>>> them
>>>>>>>> >>>> to answer concerns
>>>>>>>> >>>> Aug 12
>>>>>>>> >>>> - marcelo posted to list explaining their positions, and
>>>>>>>> expressing
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> >>>> urgent need to have the feature posted, "emergency
>>>>>>>> >>>> situation,"
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> >>>> libertario posted stock critique of chavez, did not address
>>>>>>>> feature
>>>>>>>> >>>> per
>>>>>>>> >>>> se - deva demands that feature be posted "immediately" -
>>>>>>>> >>>> jeppe urged collective to post feature "today" and forwarded
>>>>>>>> >>>> translation of it to frech speaking lists.
>>>>>>>> >>>> - ekes said feature should go up "as soon as possible" - bb
>>>>>>>> >>>> agreed that feature should go up asap and offered to make
>>>>>>>> posting
>>>>>>>> >>>> with modification of sentence pointed out by Evan
>>>>>>>> >>>> - deva wrote that disputed sentence should stay in
>>>>>>>> >>>> - ekes proposed links to add to story
>>>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas disagrees, says it should include criticisms of
>>>>>>>> chavez
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> >>>> marcelo request "urgent clearance" for feature to go up,
>>>>>>>> >>>> citing "emergency situation" imminent, possibility of
>>>>>>>> >>>> right-wing coup
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> >>>> violence
>>>>>>>> >>>> - boud suggests additional links.  some, but not all, make
>>>>>>>> >>>> it
>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>> >>>> final draft
>>>>>>>> >>>> - bb asks collective status on feature, whether it may go up
>>>>>>>> >>>> or
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> >>>> cesar gerena expresses support for feature
>>>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas makes counter proposal (co-written by toya &
>>>>>>>> >>>> pablo)
>>>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-
>>>>>>>> August/0812-q8.html
>>>>>>>> >>>> - deva rejects brasil proposal
>>>>>>>> >>>> - cesar gerena also criticises brasil proposal, supports
>>>>>>>> >>>> venezuela-written proposal
>>>>>>>> >>>> - bb makes the call to post original feature, cites sense of
>>>>>>>> urgency.
>>>>>>>> >>>> offers to immediately pull it if anyone chooses to block
>>>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-
>>>>>>>> August/0812-a0.html
>>>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas acknowledges posting of original feature "with
>>>>>>>> changes"
>>>>>>>> >>>> made by bb. "it is better than the other." and "this is a
>>>>>>>> controversal
>>>>>>>> >>>> topic and I hope nobody got angry with this confusion." -
>>>>>>>> >>>> pablo agrees that posted feature is "more balanced and less
>>>>>>>> >>>> chavista"
>>>>>>>> >>>> but proposes additional links be added.
>>>>>>>> >>>> Fri Aug 13
>>>>>>>> >>>> - pina adds proposed links to feature
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> the discussion opens up again at this point.  disagreements
>>>>>>>> >>>> and miscommunications still exist but no one asks for it to
>>>>>>>> >>>> be taken
>>>>>>>> down,
>>>>>>>> >>>> and it is not until some time later, when it is far too
>>>>>>>> >>>> late,
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> >>>> anyone says i did anything wrong.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> consensus is not always clear, especially when dealing with
>>>>>>>> >>>> what
>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>> >>>> like an urgent situation.  i agree process was not perfect,
>>>>>>>> >>>> but
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> >>>> rarely is.  i am not the first to post a feature because it
>>>>>>>> >>>> seems
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> >>>> people are demanding it, with the clause that it can be
>>>>>>>> >>>> taken
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> >>>> anyone raises an objection.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> all i can say is i did the best i could with what i knew at
>>>>>>>> >>>> the
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> >>>> i would appreciate it if others expressed how they feel
>>>>>>>> >>>> about
>>>>>>>> this,
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> >>>> i'm feeling rather isolated at this moment.  perhaps it is
>>>>>>>> deserved, i
>>>>>>>> >>>> don't know...
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> bb
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>>>> >>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>>>> >>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> www-editoriales mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> www-editoriales at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>>>> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-editoriales
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>>>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://www.fempages.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
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