[www-features] Re: About Venezuela-Texaco article on global

[Marcelo Andrade]

[en y es]
thanks, pina and all...
gracis a pina y a tod at s...
looks like we figured this out...
parece que logramos sacar esto adelante...
let´s get the Popular Assemblies feature up in the nest day or two...
subamos el feature de las Asambleas Populares en los dos próximos días.
buen trabajo en equipo despues de todo...
good team work after all...
hugs y besos
marcelo


>
> [en]
> hi all, i´ve already made the changes
>
> [pt]
> ola a todos, eu ja fiz as mudanças
>
> =)
> Pina
>
>
>
>> [en]
>> i want to raise my objection to something. the texaco article has been
>> posted on the global, and that is good... but since the whole article
>> is not
>> appearing on the main site, the summary should include the last
>> paragraph of
>> the full article instead of the second paragraph. that is very very
>> important because that last paragraph is precisely the paragraph where
>> the complexities of the issue are exposed, and the summary is what
>> everyone reads. so please, honoring the long discussion we had to get
>> this feature up, those complexities should be clear in that summary.
>> can someone please change that asap? we don't have access from here.
>> thanks
>> marcelo
>> pd: there should also be a link to the venezuela section at imc puerto
>> rico
>>
>> [es]
>> quiero levantar mi objeción frente a algo. el artículo de texaco ha
>> subido a
>> la global (bien)... pero ya que todo el artículo no aparece en la
>> pagina principal, el resumen debe incluir el último párrafo del
>> artículo en sustitución del segundo. ese último párrafo es muy
>> importante ya que en él se exponen las complejidades del asunto y es
>> precisamente el resumen lo que
>> todo el mundo lee. así que por favor, en honor a la larga y complicada
>> discución que tuvimos para subir este feature, esas complejidades
>> deben estar muy claras en el resumen. por favor, alguién puede cambiar
>> eso lo antes posible? nosotr at s no tenemos acceso desde aquí.
>> gracias
>> marcelo
>> pd: debe haber tambien un enlace a la sección de venezuela en imc
>> puerto rico.
>>>
>>> [pt]
>>> Sim, eu acredito que esta versão está ok, não é a versão que eu acho
>>> que deveria subir, mas é um começo... nao tenho motivos para
>>> bloquea-la... Esta versão do editorial é consenso???? eu espero que
>>> sim
>>>
>>> [en]
>>> Yes, i think that this version is ok, is not the one i think it
>>> should go up,  but is a start ... i have no reazon the block it...
>>> So, is this version of the feature a consensus????? i hope so
>>> =)
>>> Pina
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>> [castellano abajo...]
>>>> [english]
>>>> CAN WE PLEASE REACH A CONSENSUS HERE:
>>>>
>>>> Being here in Venezuela, I propose that the two features (Venezuelan
>>>> Popular
>>>> Assemblies and Texaco-Microsoft) go up. I think is is important to
>>>> expose these texaco-micrsoft deals because they are happening under
>>>> the guise of "progress".
>>>>
>>>> (the Popular Assemblies article in spanish can be found at:
>>>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>> can someone translate it to english when the site is running again?)
>>>>
>>>> I have taken time to re-write (in english and spanish) the proposed
>>>> feature
>>>> by imc brazil. it is now, in my opinion, objective and is not
>>>> pushing personal agendas, so... again, from venezuela, I propose
>>>> that it DOES go up
>>>> IN THIS VERSION along the Popular Assemblies article:
>>>>
>>>> Venezuela, Texaco and Microsoft
>>>>
>>>> Despite all the efforts from the popular movements to deepen the
>>>> Bolivarian
>>>> Revolution of Venezuela, the government, with the approval of
>>>> president Hugo
>>>> Chavés Frias, made 2 partnership with the multinational companies
>>>> Chevron-Texaco and Microsoft (more contracts with Repsol and other
>>>> corporations have also been signed) . Both agreements were signed
>>>> before the
>>>> referedum took place, but with the focus on the electoral process,
>>>> criticism
>>>> from the popular movements was minimal.
>>>>
>>>> One of the contracts is a binacional gasoduto sponsored by the
>>>> governments of Venezuela and Colombia, and coordinated by the USian
>>>> multinational Chevron-Texaco. Acording to Chavéz, it´s a “direct way
>>>> out to the giant asian market”. By constructing the gasoduto,
>>>> Venezuela volunteers to enter in the Plan Puebla Panamá, a
>>>> collection of infrastructure with the objective
>>>> to respond to the USian multinationals needs.
>>>>
>>>> Parallel to that, the Venezuelan government, via the education
>>>> ministry, signed a contract with Microsoft to provide software to
>>>> the schools across the country, contradicting the incentive policy
>>>> of free software, which the
>>>> government was adopting until Felipe Péres left the Planification
>>>> and Development Ministry. According to Richard Stallman, the founder
>>>> of the GNU
>>>> movement (free software): “The Venezuelan government just made a
>>>> critical error, which consequences will give control of computing to
>>>> a global corporation: make a contract with Microsoft to use the
>>>> program in the schools.”
>>>> After the victory in the referendum, the popular movements are now
>>>> trying to
>>>> accelerate the process they call "Revolution within the Revolution",
>>>> precisely to fight against deals like these and the abuses of the
>>>> power-hungry "bolivarian" political parties. The  balance of forces
>>>> is still
>>>> very tight in Venezuela, and in many ways Chavez is trapped between
>>>> the revolutionary currents and the neoliberal elements within the
>>>> government that could bring the country down if they join forces
>>>> with the
>>>> counter-revolution. Venezuelan popular movements must engage in
>>>> revolutionary offensive; the processes of joint popular rebellion in
>>>> the continent must accelerate; and international support for the
>>>> autonomous movements of the Bolivarian Revolution must grow, because
>>>> Microsoft, Texaco
>>>> and the global bourgeoisie have no real problem in negotiating with
>>>> the "revolutionary bureaucracy" of Venezuela.
>>>>
>>>> (in Spanish below)
>>>> ----
>>>> [castellano]
>>>>
>>>> POR FAVOR LLEGUEMOS A UN CONSENSO:
>>>> Estando aqui en Venezuela PROPONGO que suban los dos artículos (el
>>>> de las Asambleas Populares y el Texaco-Microsoft). Este segundo
>>>> tiene información importante que debe ser expuesta pero de forma
>>>> objetiva.
>>>>
>>>> Me tome el tiempo de re-escribir (en inglés y castellano) el
>>>> articulo propuesto por imc brasil. en mi opinion, ahora esta escrito
>>>> de forma objetiva y no empuja agendas personales. Propongo entonces
>>>> que SUBA ESTA VERSION junto al artículo de las Asambleas Populares:
>>>>
>>>> Venezuela, Texaco y Microsoft
>>>>
>>>> Brasil 31.08.2004
>>>>
>>>> A pesar de los efuerzos por parte de los movimientos populares en
>>>> profundizar la Revolución Bolivariana de Venezuela, el gobierno de
>>>> este país, con la autorización del presidente Hugo Chávez, firmó dos
>>>> contratos con las multinacionales Chevron-Texaco y Microsoft (además
>>>> de otros contratos con Repsol y otras corporaciones del capitalismo
>>>> global). Ambos tratados se firmaron antes del referendum, pero con
>>>> la atención puesta sobre
>>>> la contienda electoral, la resistencia por parte de los movimientos
>>>> populares fue mínima.
>>>>
>>>> Uno de los contratos es un gasoducto binacional patrocinado por los
>>>> gobiernos de Colombia y Venezuela, con la supervisión de la
>>>> multinacional estadounidense Chevron-Texaco. Según Chávez, "es una
>>>> salida directa a ese inmenso mercado asiátic". Al construir este
>>>> gasoducto, Venezuela estará ingresando voluntariamente al Plan
>>>> Puebla Panamá, un plan de desarrollo continental con el objetivo de
>>>> montar la infraestructura que suplan las necesidades de las
>>>> corporaciones del capital multinacional.
>>>>
>>>> Paralelo a esto, el gobierno venezolano, a través del Ministerio de
>>>> Educación, firmó un contrato con Microsoft para que esta le provea
>>>> el software a las escuelas de todo el país y los estudiantes se
>>>> entrenen en este sistema. Este contrato entra en clara contradicción
>>>> con la política incentiva del software libre que venía impulsando
>>>> Felipe Pérez durante su gestión como Ministro de Planificación y
>>>> Desarrollo. Según Richard Stallman,
>>>> el fundador del movimiento Pro-Software-Libre: "El gobierno
>>>> venezolano acaba
>>>> de cometer una grave error, cuyas consecuencias le darán el control
>>>> de la computación a una corporación global."
>>>>
>>>> Tras la victoria en el referendum, los movimientos populares están
>>>> tratando
>>>> de acelerar el proceso de "Revolución en la Revolución",
>>>> precisamente para combatir contra tratados como estos y los abusos
>>>> de los partidos políticos "bolivarianos". La correlación de
>>>> fuerzas en Venezuela es todavía muy frágil, y Chávez se encuentra
>>>> atrapado entre la corriente verdaderamente revolucionaria y los
>>>> elementos neoliberales en el gobierno que, de unirse a la
>>>> contra-revolución, podrían poner al país de rodillas en muy poco
>>>> tiempo. Los movimientos populares en Venezuela deben entrar en
>>>> ofensiva revolucionaria; los procesos de rebelión
>>>> continental conjunta deben acelerarse; y el apoyo internacional
>>>> hacia los movimientos autónomos de la Revolución Bolivariana debe
>>>> crecer, porque Microsoft, Texaco y la burguesía global no tienen
>>>> ningún problema en negociar con la "burocracia revolucionaria" de
>>>> Venezuela. ---
>>>> (el articulo de las Asambleas Populares se encuentra en:
>>>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>> (alguién puede traducitlo al inglés una vez que la página esté
>>>> funcionando de nuevo?)
>>>>
>>>> hasta la victoria siempre
>>>> marcelo
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> here
>>>>
>>>>> I have the same opinion of some lefty politicians. That's not the
>>>>> thing of that feature.
>>>>>
>>>>> ... It's a principle having consensus in the collectives before
>>>>> posting a feature in each imc, that's how it works in Puerto Rico
>>>>> and many other imcs. Maybe it's not fundamental to have consensus
>>>>> on a feature proposed by an imc collective for global... but here
>>>>> in features, i have learned that hell yes, because is a thing that
>>>>> involves all of us in this project.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it is necessary to reach consensus in local imcs for posted
>>>>> features, i expect the same for global features.
>>>>>
>>>>> Solidaridad plena.
>>>>>
>>>>> CGC
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, we have got politicians here from e.g. the socialist party
>>>>>> who travel
>>>>>> to Venezuela to blind the people here that a "revolution via
>>>>>> voting" would be possible and exploit Chavez and the Bolivarian
>>>>>> revolution that way. Not to say that the same politicians - and
>>>>>> other leaders of this party called locally several times the
>>>>>> police to arrest protesters when there was e.g. the Poll Tax Riot
>>>>>> or last years anti-war protests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be nice if people in Venezuela understand, too, that some
>>>>>> (lefty) politicians try to lure disillusioned potential voters
>>>>>> back into reformist representative parliamentary politics by
>>>>>> giving Chavez as an example and glorifying him and his politics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As about consenus in the proposing collective; I am not sure if
>>>>>> every proposal here is proposed via consensus in an indymedia
>>>>>> collective; I was not aware that this would be a fundamental
>>>>>> demand to make a feature proposal as it seemed that individuals
>>>>>> were able to put in proposals, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have never really asked the local collectives here before for a
>>>>>> consenus for a feature, but don't think there would have been a
>>>>>> problem though, but would still be interested if that is an
>>>>>> underlying condition for proposing features?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ciao Ulla
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT), César Gerena
>>>>>> <gerenapr at riseup.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ask yourself the intentions of a feature that does not even had
>>>>>>> consensus
>>>>>>> in brasil colletive...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> chevron feature is not just info to pass on, the editorial
>>>>>>> opinions, the ideological opinions are not shared by the majority
>>>>>>> of comrades that have
>>>>>>> expressed here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no superstars, no gods, no personal agendas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> solidaridad plena.
>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> forgive me to be stupid but can one person explain once what's
>>>>>>>> the problem here?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> people in venezuela had choise between capitalists and chavez,
>>>>>>>> is that democratic than? so why there can not be critic on
>>>>>>>> cahvez than: is he something more than human than, a superstar
>>>>>>>> without faults, a hero, somekind of GOD?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> getting ennoyed by this discussion...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> greetings, guidoke
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 23:19, César Gerena wrote:
>>>>>>>>> [en]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The info in the microsoft chevron feature is good, but the
>>>>>>>>> opinions and
>>>>>>>>> editorial lines are not and does not reflects the opinion of
>>>>>>>>> many, thats
>>>>>>>>> been clearly expressed here. There is no consensus for it. The
>>>>>>>>> new proposed feature is vital information of the process the
>>>>>>>>> social movements
>>>>>>>>> are calling for a change a profundization of the process and
>>>>>>>>> rebeling against government's bureaucracy and corruption.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [es]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> La información en el destaque de chevron y microsoft es buena,
>>>>>>>>> pero las
>>>>>>>>> opiniones editoriales no lo son y no representan el sentir de
>>>>>>>>> la mayoria,
>>>>>>>>> eso ha sido claramente expresado aquí. La nueva propuesta
>>>>>>>>> contiene buena
>>>>>>>>> y
>>>>>>>>> vital información para analizar el proceso en el que los
>>>>>>>>> movimientos sociales claman por un cambio y profundización del
>>>>>>>>> proceso
>>>>>>>>> bolivariano
>>>>>>>>> y
>>>>>>>>> su rebelión contra la burocracia y corrupción en el gobierno.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> GerenaPR
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > [en]
>>>>>>>>> > i believe the best would be like marcelo said - i think it
>>>>>>>>> > was him -
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> > have both up..not one with a link to another..specially cuz
>>>>>>>>> > one is
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> > the social moviments and the other is about the government
>>>>>>>>> > work [pt]
>>>>>>>>> > eu acredito que o melhor seria como o marcelo disse - eu acho
>>>>>>>>> > q foi
>>>>>>>>> ele -
>>>>>>>>> > ter os dois no site.. nao apenas um com um link para o
>>>>>>>>> > outro..especialmente porque um eh sobre os movimentos
>>>>>>>>> > populares e
>>>>>>>>> outro
>>>>>>>>> > sobre o trabalho do governo
>>>>>>>>> > ciao
>>>>>>>>> > toya
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >> [en]
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> We support this feature, critic, analitical, not
>>>>>>>>> >> reactionary, not
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> >> personal agendas.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> [es]
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> Apoyamos este destaque, critico, analítico, no
>>>>>>>>> >> reaccionario, sin
>>>>>>>>> agendas
>>>>>>>>> >> personales.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> Salud y subversiones.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> GerenaPR
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >>> [castellano bellow]
>>>>>>>>> >>> [english]
>>>>>>>>> >>> Trying to reach a consensus, From Venezuela we propose the
>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>> >>> article
>>>>>>>>> >>> as feature: "Popular Assemblies Call For Revolution Within
>>>>>>>>> >>> the Revolution".
>>>>>>>>> >>> it hasn't been translated, but it talks about the popular
>>>>>>>>> assemblies
>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>> >>> are taking place around different parts of the country
>>>>>>>>> >>> rebeling
>>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>>>> >>> "revolutionary bureaucracy imposed by certain parties.
>>>>>>>>> >>> check out:
>>>>>>>>> >>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>> [castellano]
>>>>>>>>> >>> Para tratar de llegar a un consenso, desde Venezuela
>>>>>>>>> >>> proponemos el siguiente
>>>>>>>>> >>> articulo para un feautre en la global: "Asambleas Populares
>>>>>>>>> Plantean
>>>>>>>>> >>> Revolucion dentro de la Revolucion"
>>>>>>>>> >>> http://pr.indymedia.org/features/venezuela/
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>> falta traducirlo al inglés, pero creemos que es crucial
>>>>>>>>> >>> que se
>>>>>>>>> difunda,
>>>>>>>>> >>> en
>>>>>>>>> >>> todo caso, lo que pueblo está organizando en rebelión
>>>>>>>>> >>> contra las partidocracias "revolucionarias" que quieren
>>>>>>>>> >>> dominarlo todo.
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>> saludos
>>>>>>>>> >>> marcelo
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>> A number of comrades have raised criticisms of me for
>>>>>>>>> >>>> posting the feature "Venezuela: Between Empire and
>>>>>>>>> >>>> Revolution" without
>>>>>>>>> consensus.
>>>>>>>>> >>>> I cannot change the past but I would at least like to
>>>>>>>>> >>>> review my account
>>>>>>>>> >>>> of what happened...
>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>> Aug 11
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - Proposal sent to the list, written by Venezuelan
>>>>>>>>> >>>> comrades - Evan raised concern that feature seemed
>>>>>>>>> >>>> pro-Chavez in places,
>>>>>>>>> citing
>>>>>>>>> >>>> a particular sentence which was removed from the final
>>>>>>>>> >>>> version.
>>>>>>>>> Also
>>>>>>>>> >>>> claimed the proposal came from "English-speaking" world -
>>>>>>>>> >>>> bb pointed out that feature came from Venezuela, and
>>>>>>>>> >>>> deferred
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> >>>> them
>>>>>>>>> >>>> to answer concerns
>>>>>>>>> >>>> Aug 12
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - marcelo posted to list explaining their positions, and
>>>>>>>>> expressing
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> >>>> urgent need to have the feature posted, "emergency
>>>>>>>>> >>>> situation,"
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> >>>> libertario posted stock critique of chavez, did not
>>>>>>>>> >>>> address
>>>>>>>>> feature
>>>>>>>>> >>>> per
>>>>>>>>> >>>> se - deva demands that feature be posted "immediately" -
>>>>>>>>> >>>> jeppe urged collective to post feature "today" and
>>>>>>>>> >>>> forwarded translation of it to frech speaking lists.
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - ekes said feature should go up "as soon as possible" -
>>>>>>>>> >>>> bb agreed that feature should go up asap and offered to
>>>>>>>>> >>>> make
>>>>>>>>> posting
>>>>>>>>> >>>> with modification of sentence pointed out by Evan
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - deva wrote that disputed sentence should stay in
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - ekes proposed links to add to story
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas disagrees, says it should include criticisms
>>>>>>>>> >>>> of
>>>>>>>>> chavez
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> >>>> marcelo request "urgent clearance" for feature to go up,
>>>>>>>>> >>>> citing "emergency situation" imminent, possibility of
>>>>>>>>> >>>> right-wing coup
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> >>>> violence
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - boud suggests additional links.  some, but not all, make
>>>>>>>>> >>>> it
>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>> >>>> final draft
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - bb asks collective status on feature, whether it may go
>>>>>>>>> >>>> up or
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> >>>> cesar gerena expresses support for feature
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas makes counter proposal (co-written by toya &
>>>>>>>>> >>>> pablo)
>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-
>>>>>>>>> August/0812-q8.html
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - deva rejects brasil proposal
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - cesar gerena also criticises brasil proposal, supports
>>>>>>>>> >>>> venezuela-written proposal
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - bb makes the call to post original feature, cites sense
>>>>>>>>> >>>> of
>>>>>>>>> urgency.
>>>>>>>>> >>>> offers to immediately pull it if anyone chooses to block
>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-
>>>>>>>>> August/0812-a0.html
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - felipecas acknowledges posting of original feature "with
>>>>>>>>> changes"
>>>>>>>>> >>>> made by bb. "it is better than the other." and "this is a
>>>>>>>>> controversal
>>>>>>>>> >>>> topic and I hope nobody got angry with this confusion." -
>>>>>>>>> >>>> pablo agrees that posted feature is "more balanced and
>>>>>>>>> >>>> less chavista"
>>>>>>>>> >>>> but proposes additional links be added.
>>>>>>>>> >>>> Fri Aug 13
>>>>>>>>> >>>> - pina adds proposed links to feature
>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>> the discussion opens up again at this point.
>>>>>>>>> >>>> disagreements and miscommunications still exist but no one
>>>>>>>>> >>>> asks for it to be taken
>>>>>>>>> down,
>>>>>>>>> >>>> and it is not until some time later, when it is far too
>>>>>>>>> >>>> late,
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> >>>> anyone says i did anything wrong.
>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>> consensus is not always clear, especially when dealing
>>>>>>>>> >>>> with what
>>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>>> >>>> like an urgent situation.  i agree process was not
>>>>>>>>> >>>> perfect, but
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> >>>> rarely is.  i am not the first to post a feature because
>>>>>>>>> >>>> it seems
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> >>>> people are demanding it, with the clause that it can be
>>>>>>>>> >>>> taken
>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> >>>> anyone raises an objection.
>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>> all i can say is i did the best i could with what i knew
>>>>>>>>> >>>> at the
>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> >>>> i would appreciate it if others expressed how they feel
>>>>>>>>> >>>> about
>>>>>>>>> this,
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> >>>> i'm feeling rather isolated at this moment.  perhaps it is
>>>>>>>>> deserved, i
>>>>>>>>> >>>> don't know...
>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>> bb
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>>>>> >>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>>>>> >>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> >> www-editoriales mailing list
>>>>>>>>> >> www-editoriales at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>>>>> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-editoriales
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>>>>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> www-features mailing list
>>>>>>> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> http://www.fempages.org
>>>>
>>>>
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