[www-editoriales] Re: [www-features] Re: feature proposal : Chavez Venezuela

[César Gerena]

[en]
Yep... that's the feature, with erroneous info, personal agenda and
without consensus in brasil...

We still believe, that because of the erroneous info it should be removed
from global...

If not, is not important, venezuela bolivariana Va, with Indymedia or
without it!


[es]

Si, ese es el destaque que defendieron tanto, con información errónea,
mentiras, agendas personales y sin consenso en brasil.
 Creemos que por la mentiras que contiene y la información errónea que
induce a error debe ser removido.

No importa, Venezuela Bolivariana Va, con Indymedia o sin Indymedia.

Real Solidaridad.
Gerenapr
> hi,
>
>
> did read this comment posted under the feature:
>
>
> "this feature is complete rubbish!
> pescao 05.Sep.2004 15:20
>
>
> this is just a shallow re-write of the piece IMC-Brazil rejected (but
> which was published anyway, and then sent global, dishonestly under the
> guise of being from 'IMC-Brazil' even tho it had been vetoed by several
> of the group there - check the list archives if u don't believe me), but
> in a effort to erase one mistake (the misleading opening that made it
> look like the deals were done after the referendum) whoever re-wrote it
> added another! which is: that at least one of the deals (the microsoft
> one, who knows about the other) was made over EIGHT MONTHS AGO and not,
> as claimed, during the recent "electoral process".
>
> and what's up with the photo? so, chávez (and by the way, spell it right
> if u want us to take u seriously) is trying to buy a little peace with
> colombia; he's president of venezuela, that would seem to be his job. if
> indymedia can't do a bit better than a snap of a very popular leader
> greeting the devil in an effort to stave off a major war in the region,
> or the smear of an 8 month old business deal (stallman's quote was from
> january) then we really have become a parody of ourselves. talk about
> sniping from the sidelines! and not one english-speaking link for more
> info on vz? yeah, very 'balanced'!
>
> and by the way, why the hell should the venezuelan people care one jot
> about any of this? M$word in the schools (so the kids can use computers
> in other countries as well as their linux boxes?), selling some gas to
> asia to pay for the revolution? most of the "autonomous movements of the
> Bolivarian Revolution" (yeah, they're only 'autonomous' when their
> elected leader's been kidnapped!) are probably totally fine with this.
> professing solidarity, indymedia allows itself to be used to endorse the
> anti-bolivarian agenda of someone clearly with a personal vendetta. on
> the wire, sure, but this bunch of smears and lies has no place in the
> middle column. we're suposed to be vigilant against these kind of lies
> and propaganda, remember, not put them on the front page! WAKE UP YOU
> MUPPETS!
>
> (btw dont try and weasel out of this by changing a couple of words of
> text, that's what u did before and u ended up messing it up even more.
> the piece is bogus, descredited by the very people (IMC-Brazil) who are
> supposed to've written it, time to hold up your hands and admit u were
> fooled by some chávez-hater with a personal vendetta. no biggie, it
> happens all the time, let's just see u have the good grace to make
> ammends and move on!)"
>
> "
>
>
>
> Did read this one back:
>
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-August/0826-2f.html
>
>
>
>
> Ssems what I posted is the same, it's here:
>
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/www-features/2004-September/0902-bl.html
>
>
>
>
>
> The thing about Microsoft is not correct, it was in January the deal
> happend:   http://www.midiaindependente.org/pt/blue/2004/08/289140.shtml
>
> which links to http://www.rebelion.org/cibercensura/040127ve.htm
>
> wcich links to:  http://www.aporrea.org/dameletra.php?docid=6475
>
>
>
>
> I posted it because there were not negative reactions after the last
> proposal bur now I feel very stupid having posted it.
>
> I have the impression it has to be on hidden, info is just not correct.
>
>
>
>
> the pciture came form the feature that is posted on imc.uk
>
>
>
>
>
> greetings, guidoke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 21:27, toya at riseup.net wrote:
>> [en]
>> hi all,
>> i totally agree with AB, i would like to know what the rest of ppl here
>> thinks about the process in this both lists..
>> I believe that more then putting up a features on the global site, we
>> should be thinking of this whole debate... some people here believe that
>> a
>> features talking about chavez making business with big corporation is a
>> ofense to the people of venezuela and it doesnt shows the reality over
>> there...
>> but again, how could that ofence the people of venezuela??? would be
>> better for them to not have information bout chavez business going out
>> to
>> the world?? as AB says...no one here has the intention to disrispect the
>> social moviments in venezuela, for the other hand, i believe that
>> everyone
>> here wants it to grows in all the ways.... and that is why we do believe
>> that to talk bout it (chavez business with big USA corporations) should
>> be
>> part of the process of dicussion...so ppl can be able to question if
>> this
>> is good or not to venezuela... and if that isnt going to afect the work
>> the goverment is doing..then we should also write bout it as well!!!!
>> but
>> with concrete informations..so we dont be vague and we can have strong
>> arguments to shows up to the corporate media and to the right...
>> And yes, I see here a contradiction process ... we just had the same
>> situation..a debate about a features with strong positions..and for that
>> situation the features went up without consensus ..... but now, when we
>> are facing a simular one the solution is to not put it up cuz we dont
>> have
>> a consensus...
>> we also had a situation in here where when a link to a features were
>> sugested and as a answer to that sugestion we recieved a huge critique
>> of
>> the politial ideology of the group who has the website of the link....
>> not a critique to the group itself but for their political ideology...
>> so, i would like to know what ppl thinks of these process??? do you all
>> believe this is the best way of building a decision making process??? to
>> be changing depending on the situation.. to be critizing ideology
>> without
>> a reason for it??? where is the respect for diversity??
>> i dont know bout the rest in this list..but it actually scares me to see
>> how the decision making process is happening here...
>> ciao
>> toya
>>
>> [pt]
>> oi,
>> eu concordo plenamente com o AB, eu gostaria de saber o que que o resto
>> das pessoas desta lista pensam sobre o processo dentro de ambas as
>> listas??
>> Eu acredito que mais do que apenas subir um editorial ao sitio global,
>> nos
>> deveriamos estar refletindo sobre todo este debate... algumas pessoas
>> aqui
>> acreditam que este editorial sobre o chavez fazendo negocios com grandes
>> corporacoes ofende o povo da venezuela e nao reflete a realidade de
>> lah...
>> mas, novamente, como que isso pode ofender o povo da venezuela??? seria
>> melhor para eles nao ter essa informacao sobre os negocios de chavez
>> disponivel para o mundo??? como disse AB...ninguem aqui tem a intencao
>> de
>> desrespeitar os movimentos sociais da venezuela, pelo contrario, eu
>> acredito que todo mundo aqui quer que eles crescam em todos os
>> sentidos...
>> e eh por isso que acreditamos que falar sobre isso (os negocios de
>> chavez
>> com grandes corporacoes dos EUA)deveria ser parte do processo de
>> discussao...para que o povo possa questionar se isso sera bom ou ruim
>> para
>> a venezuela.. e se isso nao ira afetar o trabalho que o governo vem
>> fazendo... entao deveriamos escrever sobre isso!!!mas com informacoes
>> concretas..para que nao sejamos vagos e que possamos ter argumentos
>> fortes
>> para mostrar a midia corporativa e a direita...
>> e sim, eu vejo aqui um processo contraditorio... recentemente tivemos na
>> mesma situacao.. um debate sobre um editorial com fortes posicoes.. e
>> para
>> aquela situacao o editorial subiu... mas agora, quando estamos numa
>> outra
>> semelhante, a solucao eh para nao subir o editorial porque nao
>> conseguimos
>> consenso sobre ele...
>> nos tambem tivemos uma situacao aqui quando um link foi sugerido para um
>> editorial e como resposta houve um email criticando a ideologia politica
>> do grupo que organiza o sitio do link...
>> nao uma critica ao trabalho do grupo mas a sua ideologia politica...
>> entao, eu gostaria de saber oq o resto das pessoas pensam sobre esse
>> processo?? todos voces acreditam que esta eh a melhor maneira de criar
>> um
>> processo para tomar decisoes??? que muda dependendo da situacao... que
>> critica ideologias sem nenhum motivo??? aonde que esta o respeito pela
>> diversidade???
>> eu nao sei quanto ao resto das pessoas nesta lista.. mas na real me
>> assusta em ver como que esta sendo feito o processo de tomada de
>> decisoes
>> por aqui..
>> ciao
>> toya
>>
>>
>> cuz right now we havent been able to get in a consensus
>>
>>
>> > my english is not good enough to translate what i want to say. can
>> > someone help me to translate this?
>> >
>> > castellano abajo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > nao consigo entender em que um editorial que faz criticas à esquerda
>> ao
>> > fato de chavez estar atendendo aos interesses de grandes corporaçoes,
>> > pode estar desrespeitando o povo venezuelano.
>> > mesmo para os que acham que o que esta acontecendo agora na venezuela
>> é
>> > muito bom, esse tipo de critica deveria ser visto como uma ajuda. uma
>> > tentativa de corrigir rumos.
>> > nao se pode criticar absolutamente nenhum aspecto do governo de
>> chavez?
>> > sera que isso estaria de acordo com os principios do indymedia?
>> > me parece que estão havendo erros muito graves aqui. ha duas posicoes
>> > politicas e so uma esta podendo dar a sua visao. e atenção, não
>> estamos
>> > querendo fazer editoriais contra os movimentos sociais venezuelanos,
>> > apenas queremos poder escrever sobre aspectos da politica de chavez
>> que
>> > nos sempre criticamos em outros governos.
>> > mas as posicoes e mensagens do cesar demonstram que ele nao esta
>> > interessado em debater ou mostrar as varias visoes. sua mensagem
>> falando
>> > sobre anarquismo e o editorial publicado sem consenso e no meio de um
>> > debate mostram o desrespeito que ele tem por visoes diferentes da sua.
>> > o que é isso? o que os outros pensam? ja não estou falando da questao
>> da
>> > venezuela, mas do proprio funcionamento dessas duas listas.
>> > gostaria de ouvir opinioes de outras pessoas, tanto sobre o editorial
>> > quanto sobre o mal funcionamento dos processos de discussao e formacao
>> > de consenso aqui.
>> >
>> > AB
>> >
>> > yo no puedo compreender donde un editorial que critica a chavez con
>> una
>> > vision de isquierdas, hablando del hecho de que él esta haciendo lo
>> que
>> > quieren las grandes corporaciones, puede perjudicar el pueblo de
>> > venezuela.
>> > incluso a los que les gusta lo que esta pasando en venezuela ese tipo
>> de
>> > critica deberia parecer positivo. una ayuda para corregir rumbos.
>> > no se puede hacer ninguna critica al gobierno de chavez?
>> > me parece que eso no esta de acuerdo con los principios de indymedia,
>> > no?
>> > me parecen que estan pasando problemas muy gordos por aqui.
>> > hay dos posicionamentos politicos distintos pero solamente uno de los
>> > dos puede decir lo que opina. y atencion! lo que queremos no es hacer
>> > editoriales en contra de los movimientos sociales de venezuela, solo
>> > estamos por escribir en contra de aspectos del gobierno de chavez que
>> > siempre hemos criticado en otros gobiernos.
>> > pero los posicionamentos y mensajes de cesar demuenstran que él no
>> > quiere el debate o las muchas opiniones. su mensaje sobre anarquismo y
>> > la editorial publicada sin consenso y en medio de una discusion
>> enseñan
>> > el poco respeto que tiene por opiniones distintas de las suyas.
>> > que es eso? que pasa? que opinan los demas?ya no hablo de lo de
>> > venezuela, pero del funcionamento de esas dos listas.
>> > me gustaria saber que opinan los demas, sobre la editorial y sobre el
>> > mal funcionamento de los procesos de toma de decision y construcion de
>> > consenso por aqui.
>> >
>> > AB
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Em Dom, 2004-08-29 às 04:02, Pablo Ortellado escreveu:
>> >> Ok, go ahead and block this proposal based on no arguments other than
>> >> "disrespecting venezuelans". Thats beautiful.
>> >>
>> >> Va em frente e bloqueie a proposta baseado em excelentes argumentos
>> como
>> >> esse artigo "desrespeita os venezuelanos". Lindo!
>> >>
>> >> César Gerena wrote:
>> >> > [en]
>> >> > Hi all. Brasil IMC's editorial, the same as el libertario is not
>> worth
>> >> a
>> >> > global feature, other importants things are happening. For a
>> >> consensus,
>> >> > and a fair solution for the impossition of an editorial with
>> personal
>> >> > agendas, we can support a feature with the Global action day in
>> >> support of
>> >> > autonomous movements and our sruggles proposed by Marcelo, and the
>> re
>> >> > wording of the final sentence as well. Other thing disrespecting
>> >> > struggling venezuelans we'll not approve.
>> >> >
>> >> > [es]
>> >> >
>> >> > Saludos.El editorial de cmi brasil, igual a el libertario, no vale
>> una
>> >> > publicación global cuando otras cosas apremian más y son más
>> >> importantes.
>> >> > Para lograr un consenso real y una solución justa para el intento
>> de
>> >> > imponer un editorial con agendas personales, nosotros apoyariamos
>> un
>> >> > feature con enlace a la propuesta del dia global de acción en apoyo
>> >> con
>> >> > las luchas populares de nuestra américa y el parafraseo de la
>> última
>> >> > oración. Otra cosa en menosprecio de los venezolanos en lucha no lo
>> >> > apoyamos para una publicación global.
>> >> >
>> >> > Solidaridad Plena.
>> >> >
>> >> > GerenaPR
>> >> >
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> www-features at lists.indymedia.org
>> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-features
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>> > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/www-editoriales
>> >
>>
>>
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